Post New

In the last few days, the administration has made public—with considerable hooplah—batches of documents on the 1968 assassination of Martin Luther King Jr., on Hillary Clinton’s use of a private server as Secretary of State from 2009 to 2012, and on some of the intelligence community’s work on 2016 Russian election interference. There’s been a veritable blizzard of government files and revelations raining down on us.

There’s one exception to this torrent of transparency, one set of files that have been resolutely kept under lock and key: Those covering the crimes of Jeffrey Epstein.

I wonder why.


https://www.thebulwark.com/p/why-the-epstein-cover...

I wonder why.

I understand that it's politically useful, and probably satisfying, to imagine that the files contain a lot of damning information about Trump being involved with Epstein to a greater degree than is already known. We like to imagine our political opponents possibly being undone by some grand reveal, especially political opponents that we already believe are awful people that we believe have done awful things.

Put me in the other camp that thinks that's unlikely. If the government had documents that were really damaging to Trump in that way, they would have been released during the last administration.

Instead, I think the reason why they're not being released is far more boring. There's nothing there. The government doesn't have any information pointing to anyone else being complicit in Epstein's horrible crimes. There isn't a client list. There aren't more revelations to be had. There isn't some grand conspiracy of government covering up for elites. And I think Trump is politically savvy enough to know that might actually be more damaging to him than if he were in "the Epstein files" in some capacity.

How could that be, you ask? I think we here on the "normie" side of the political fence (and I include everyone on this board including our conservative posters) tend to underestimate how important it is to MAGA (and the former QAnon portion of MAGA in particular) that there exists a high-powered pedophilia ring that's being concealed by The Powers That Be. Right-wing populism is generally founded on a belief that the nation's Corrupt Elites have rigged the system against the Good Common Folk - that's universal to right-wing populist movements everywhere. But our right-wing populism was always deeply energized by the firm belief that one of the main ways that the Corrupt Elites were protecting themselves (and vulnerable to exposure) was by covering up their frequent pedophilia. This was PizzaGate, this was all the Qanon folks harassing Chrissy Teigen, this was CometPingPong, this was the horrible truth that would be exposed in the Storm that QAnon was expecting - all of which pre-dated Epstein, and then got supercharged and bound up with Epstein.

This is important to a sizable chunk of the President's base. The reason they're so emotionally invested in MAGA, so invested in him, is because they genuinely believe that the Corrupt Elite are not merely greedy and selfish but are actual monsters preying on children. Trump being elected was supposed to be their retribution. Finally someone from outside of the In Group had been elected - someone who was actually hated and despised by the In Group for being coarse and crass and having non-Establishment beliefs. This was the person who could actually expose the Horrible Truth that was being concealed.

That didn't happen in his first term, but they could persuade themselves that Jeff Sessions and Bill Barr were half in the pocket of the Corrupt Elite and Trump was in such a precarious that he couldn't expose them. But that fig leaf is gone now. Bondi's his pick, no one forced him to choose her, there's no reason at all that she can't expose all the Horrible Horrible People Who Hurt All Those Kids.

So the terrible part for Trump is that they can't expose the HHPWHATK - because they don't really have anything, and there isn't a conspiracy of HHPWHATK being protected by the Corrupt Elite. Trump can't give them what they want. And they want that thing a lot more than they want tariffs and tax cuts and shrinking Medicaid and all the things that Trump is now telling them they should be super-stoked about. This is the thing that they were emotionally invested in, the proxy for why the Democrats and Establishment Republicans deserved to be thrown out, the reason that the fight was worth it.

If Bondi opens up the kimono and there's nothing there, they will either be: i) super mad they were deceived before; or ii) convinced that Bondi's trying to deceive them now. Both are really, really bad for Trump.

So the terrible part for Trump is that they can't expose the HHPWHATK - because they don't really have anything, and there isn't a conspiracy of HHPWHATK being protected by the Corrupt Elite. Trump can't give them what they want. And they want that thing a lot more than they want tariffs and tax cuts and shrinking Medicaid and all the things that Trump is now telling them they should be super-stoked about. This is the thing that they were emotionally invested in, the proxy for why the Democrats and Establishment Republicans deserved to be thrown out, the reason that the fight was worth it.

If Bondi opens up the kimono and there's nothing there, they will either be: i) super mad they were deceived before; or ii) convinced that Bondi's trying to deceive them now. Both are really, really bad for Trump.

Replying to my own post, this is why they're willing to talk to Maxwell. They need some scalps. Before, she didn't have anything useful enough to get a deal - at that time, prosecutors weren't going to trade her any leniency unless they could get a conviction of someone bigger than her. And she clearly didn't have that. But now, it would get Trump out of a bad political box if she would go public with even just some innuendo or hints or suppositions about some names - something that they could then start an investigation into in an effort to get to the HHPWHATK. It may never result in any convictions, but it would give the MAGA faithful something to spin their wheels on until after the midterms. And Maxwell is certainly going to be in the market to play ball on this....

If Bondi opens up the kimono and there's nothing there, they will either be: i) super mad they were deceived before;……

Just curious, if the MAGA base hasn’t been upset by being lied to thousands of times or by “big” reveals like the Access Hollywood tape or the Birthday Note, what makes you think anything, hypothetically even including a video of him raping an underage girl, would make them change their position?

We’re not in Normal anymore, Dorothy.

Just curious, if the MAGA base hasn’t been upset by being lied to thousands of times or by “big” reveals like the Access Hollywood tape or the Birthday Note, what makes you think anything, hypothetically even including a video of him raping an underage girl, would make them change their position?

Because this is something they really care about, it won't be coming from their (or Trump's) opponents, and there isn't a lie about it that Trump can tell they'll believe.

We're talking about the part of Trump's base that trusts Trump more than the Washington Post (for example). So it doesn't matter whether WaPo says that something's a lie. They don't trust WaPo, so the fact that they identify something as a lie doesn't affect their view of him. They don't believe the Access Hollywood tape reflects anything that Trump actually did (he was just making stuff up for Billy), nor do they believe the Birthday Note is real. It's just Trump's enemies out to get him.

But there's no "disbelief" that can come to Trump's rescue this time. This part of the base genuinely believes that there's tons of evidence of criminal abuse of children that the government has in its possession. That the government was sitting on that evidence because it wanted to protect the Corrupt Elite. That one reason that Trump was necessary - that the main reason that Trump was necessary - was that only someone outside of The Powers That Be would be willing to expose the evidence.

There's no dance around it. Trump can't say, "that's a lie," because it's not an idea that's coming from outside his base. It's coming from inside MAGA. It's the first time that he's going to have to tell MAGA that they're wrong about a MAGA truth, something that MAGA believed was true from the start.

That's really dangerous for him.

We like to imagine our political opponents possibly being undone by some grand reveal,

Some time ago I decided against this happening. The odds are remote. That doesn't mean we don't keep chipping away.

Put me in the other camp that thinks that's unlikely. Same here.

The Powers That Be. Right-wing populism is generally founded on a belief that the nation's Corrupt Elites have rigged the system against the Good Common Folk - that's universal to right-wing populist movements everywhere

It's true, just not the way they see it. Self-interested people can lobby to get laws and tax favorable to them, and separately they can accomplish it, by supporting income streams for people to espouse social and economic theories that favor them. They can also talk to each other, create informal groups, etc., etc., etc. Populism is the great "us", which is perceived differently depending on who you are talking to.

So 3.5 years of this. I hope we get to bring Epstein up again and again and again, adding to it as we go.

If the government had documents that were really damaging to Trump in that way, they would have been released during the last administration.

I don't think it's that simple. As I've said before, it's a non-partisan grenade. You release them, everyone in the vicinity is going to get hit. And we know some prominent Dems are in the vicinity (e.g. Clinton). I think that's the only reason it hasn't been released yet. Neither party is willing to suffer the damage that would occur to them just to damage the other party.

I don't think it's that simple. As I've said before, it's a non-partisan grenade. You release them, everyone in the vicinity is going to get hit. And we know some prominent Dems are in the vicinity (e.g. Clinton). I think that's the only reason it hasn't been released yet. Neither party is willing to suffer the damage that would occur to them just to damage the other party.

I find that incredibly unlikely - especially since you get to control what you release, if you're in charge. Biden could easily have released just the information or documents that implicated Trump. It's not like there's a single, indivisible "file" that has to be released either entirely or not at all. There's likely hundreds of files containing thousands of documents. Heck, you don't have to "release" anything - just open an investigation based on information in the files, and announce you're doing it without publishing the documents that supported that.

Nor, honestly, would Joe Biden or Kamala Harris really care about blowing up the Clintons - or anyone else that might have had contact with Epstein - if it mean taking out Trump.

So, no. The most likely explanation is not the "grand conspiracy of probably hundreds of people from both parties at this point" one. It's that there's nothing interesting in the records of the Epstein case, nothing different or more illuminating than what we already know. Which is what always happens when these things get opened up - nothing juicy in the JFK records, no bombshells in the MLK files, etc.

The most likely explanation is that the entire notion of a global conspiracy of rampant pedophilia among the powerful and connected of both parties being concealed with deliberate malice and the active participation of the very highest levels of federal law enforcement is just....false. There's nothing there. There's no great victory to be won on behalf of horribly abused children by bringing the rich and powerful to justice (finally!), because there's no there there.

Biden could easily have released just the information or documents that implicated Trump.

If only part of the list was released, there'd be cries of "cover-up" and "where's the rest" and so forth. So you either have to keep the list classified, or release the whole thing. Just releasing part will likely backfire on you.

The most likely explanation is that the entire notion of a global conspiracy of rampant pedophilia among the powerful and connected of both parties being concealed with deliberate malice and the active participation of the very highest levels of federal law enforcement is just....false.

The problem with that idea is that it's the powerful people that control the levers. Even then, we've gotten a lot of leaks. So not everyone is participating. Enough powerful people are implicated that the release isn't happening. Keep in mind, those powerful people have powerful friends who -rightly or wrongly- are trying to help those powerful people. Sort of like cops not reporting other cops.

What got my attention was an official saying "the Epstein list is on my desk, and we're going to evaluate and release it", and then a few months later saying "what Epstein list? Doesn't exist". A change of story almost always indicates lying is occurring.

huge barriers exist beyond any disinformation war :

- backing of congress, scotus, and billions in extorted legal services

- MAGA is ok w/pedos (or xyz) as long as aligned on many other issues (e.g., direct\indirect deaths of any suspected illegals).
evangelicals are the hypocrisy base case here.

If only part of the list was released, there'd be cries of "cover-up" and "where's the rest" and so forth. So you either have to keep the list classified, or release the whole thing. Just releasing part will likely backfire on you.

Wait - am I right in thinking that you imagine the “list” of Epstein’s associates is an actual, single document that Epstein generated that contains these names in a literal list? Like, on a single piece of paper? That’s utterly implausible. There’s no earthly reason why Epstein would have done that. What purpose would it serve? What use would it be to him to prepare that kind of single document?

If there’s a “list” of people who might have engaged in wrongdoing in Epstein’s presence, it wouldn’t be a literal list. It would be names that show up in lots of separate documents over lots of time periods. There would be a collection of documents that could constitute the “Epstein list,” but it’s not going to be something that he just decided to write down on a single glue piece of paper. Just like there exists a “list” of all of Epstein’s victims but not a literal list that Epstein wrote, there would never be a literal list of his collaborators if he had any.

But even that collection of files is incredibly unlikely to have any unprosecuted marquis names in it.

As for Bondi, it’s far more likely she just let her mouth run away with her for good TV. She described the Epstein corpus as a list, rather than the literal boxes and boxes of files that it undoubtedly is - because the metaphor of a list is much sexier than what actually exists.

List? What list? There is no...

"On Epstein, it’s incredibly disturbing. We have flight logs, info, names that will come out. There were so many names hidden who had not been held accountable.
Now it’s time for accountability. I really believe with Kash and Pam there will be accountability." ~Alina Habba in February

"Show us the Epstein client list now!!! Why would anyone protect these scumbags?! Ask yourself this question daily and the answer becomes very apparent!!" ~Don Trump JR, 07/08/23

"@realDonaldTrump is in the Epstein files. That is the real reason they have not been made public.
Mark this post for the future. The truth will come out." ~Musk

"Dear Director Patel, Before you came into office, I requested the full and complete files related to Jeffrey Epstein. In response to this request, I received approximately 200 pages of documents, which
consisted primarily of flight logs, Epstein's list of contacts, and a list of victims' names and phone numbers." ~Pam Bondi

AG PAM BONDI, February 21: "It's sitting on my desk right now to review." AG PAM BONDI, July 07: "There is no Epstein list."

"STOP TALKING ABOUT EPSTEIN!!!" ~Epstein List Don, Artist, Pedo

https://www.justice.gov/ag/media/1391331/dl?inline

Wait - am I right in thinking that you imagine the “list” of Epstein’s associates is an actual, single document that Epstein generated that contains these names in a literal list?

Not exactly. I was under the impression that [I forget her name] as part of a plea deal provided a list based on her personal journals. This has then been augmented by documentation of flight records, and so forth. So, Epstein didn't keep a list. But a list was generated based on the above. And the boxes you mention are just the supporting documents.

Not exactly. I was under the impression that [I forget her name] as part of a plea deal provided a list based on her personal journals. This has then been augmented by documentation of flight records, and so forth. So, Epstein didn't keep a list. But a list was generated based on the above. And the boxes you mention are just the supporting documents.

Nope. I think you're thinking of Maxwell, and she never cut a plea deal. So it's exceedingly unlikely she ever provided prosecutors with a "list" of anyone (or that she had personal journals, for that matter). Nor would that "list" have likely been a document that she herself generated as a single list of names on a piece of paper, rather than (say) a prosecutor generating a list and asking her questions about it.

If someone other than Epstein is generating a list based on other documents, then there's no reason that the government official generating that list can't generate a partial list based on some of the documents. Or why bother with the list at all? Just release the documents that have Trump in them, and no other ones. Even if Trump joined Epstein in any criminal behavior, it's beyond unlikely that he would have done so at the same time as another high-profile person - if there were incriminating documents about Trump at an event, there's virtually no chance that those documents also have another high-profile person in them.

Plus, it's unlikely in the extreme that Trump would ever engage in this kind of criminal behavior with someone like Epstein able to observe or document it: the man has always run his life a bit the way you would imagine a mob boss would. He's cautious about getting his hands dirty in a way that can blow back on him. He's paranoid about not leaving paper trails, speaking in hyperbole so he can't get nailed on his claims, not doing things himself if he can have others do them, never letting people get a handle on him unless they're absolutely loyal to him, etc. If Trump wanted to engage in underage sexual activity, he'd never let a random guy like Epstein get the goods on him doing it.

The most likely explanation is that the entire notion of a global conspiracy of rampant pedophilia among the powerful and connected of both parties being concealed with deliberate malice and the active participation of the very highest levels of federal law enforcement is just....false.

That part I agree with.

The real problem I see is that if there isn't any big pedo ring and coverup, the conspiracy theorist corner of MAGA is going to be completely unsatisfied by the release of the files. They want the crimes. They NEED the crimes to justify their existence. (With my apologies to A Few Good Men.)

I suppose that's where it gets dangerous for Trump. While there may not be a ring or coverup, there might be an A-list celeb or two (potentially including Trump), and a couple of B- or C-list celebs on the list. Releasing those names won't satisfy those looking for a big conspiracy. And if Trump is actually in the files in any damaging way, I fully expect those bits to be purged. Such is the nature of the current administration. So releasing the files is most likely going to turn into a nothing burger. And that will make those looking for a big conspiracy very unhappy. Unhappy enough to potentially drop their support for Trump. Without them, Trump is toast.

In short, look for lots of smoke and mirrors, but nothing substantial.

--Peter

If Bondi opens up the kimono and there's nothing there, they will either be: i) super mad they were deceived before; or ii) convinced that Bondi's trying to deceive them now. Both are really, really bad for Trump.

Similarly, I've suspected Trump is stringing this along as a distraction from substantially more serious failure; gifting Putin/Russia nearly 2 more months to bomb the hell out of Ukraine, his failure to do 90 deals in 90 days, and the cherry on top, his ongoing family cryptogrift. THAT'S the big one that, if successful, could cement his name in the pantheon of billionaires.

No matter the outcome of the Epstein files, he's a rapist who boasted about slobbering over Miss Teen contestants in their dressing rooms. If that didn't turn off MAGA, it wasn't about pedophilia after all.

This part of the base genuinely believes that there's tons of evidence of criminal abuse of children that the government has in its possession. That the government was sitting on that evidence because it wanted to protect the Corrupt Elite.

Is it that MAGA actually cares about stopping pedophiles, or is it that the files are a tool to kneecap libs.... the underlying could be pedophilia, could be proof that libs are spawn of alien semen..or libs have the 2nd coming himself chained in a cave in the Himalayas.. it just happens to be pedophilia

Is it that MAGA actually cares about stopping pedophiles, or is it that the files are a tool to kneecap libs

It's both. Throughout history, people have attributed awful lies to their opponents and enemies - often about depredations against children or sexual deviancy. For example one of the oldest hatreds, antisemitism, is bound up in beliefs that the Jews would steal christian children and use their blood. The conspiracies are both motivated by and help to further motivate the hatred of the opponent. It rationalizes and justifies the hatred and the actions that are taken in response. These aren't merely people we oppose, but they are truly awful horrible monsters who do terrible things....to children, of all people. That gets people emotionally invested, it gets them willing to support whatever it takes to stop the monsters.

So this portion of MAGA genuinely, deeply hates pedophilia and attributes pedophilia to the people they oppose as part of their belief system. They think by supporting Trump they're helping to expose and punish a tremendous evil being committed by the Corrupt Elite - an evil they truly despise, and which they convince themselves is being perpetrated by the Corrupt Elite to justify the extreme measures they're willing to support and the emotional commitment they have to the fight.

Instead, I think the reason why they're not being released is far more boring. There's nothing there. The government doesn't have any information pointing to anyone else being complicit in Epstein's horrible crimes.

Disagree. There’s always something. Even if it’s not real, something will be found anyway. Heck, Mark Lane got rich and famous because he found a shadow in a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald that didn’t match what he thought it should look like. You release that many files and have millions of MAGAs, or more likely millions of liberals poring over it, there will be *something*.

And the Speaker and the other dark forces in charge of our government right now know it, heck, it’s the playbook they’ve been using for years: Obama is a secret Muslim! He’s not even from this country! Hillary’s email server! The pedophile ring in the pizza store basement.

You think releasing tens of thousands of pages of speculation, observation, flight logs, correspondence, videos, audio recordings and the other things will make this go away?

Even if there’s nothing there, there’s going to be something there.

You think releasing tens of thousands of pages of speculation, observation, flight logs, correspondence, videos, audio recordings and the other things will make this go away?

No - which is the point.

The portion of the MAGA base that Trump is rightfully concerned about won't be satisfied with shadows and hints. They've already got plenty of those - there's already tens of thousands of pages that have been released. This isn't some secret matter that's never been shown to anyone. Ghislaine Maxwell went to trial, and the government created a massive evidentiary record in that case - which has almost all been released already.

What MAGA is convinced of is that there's actually a smoking gun. There has to be. It can't possibly be true that there's nothing that really points to actual criminal behaviors. That there hasn't been a cover-up.

They are all expecting that there's something significant and important that hasn't already been made public. it's an incredibly important part of their political motivation. Not that there's some stuff out there that supports speculation - that there's actionable evidence that reasonable government officials would prosecute specific people one, but that the actual government isn't prosecuting because they were themselves coopted by the Corrupt Elite.

And that's what Trump can't deliver. It isn't true that the government has corruptly declined to prosecute provable pedophiles. That they've concealed conclusive evidence of their wrongdoing. But that's what this slice of his base genuinely believes. It's a big part of the reason they hate the Corrupt Elite so much, and a big part of why they thought Trump would be able to take down the Corrupt Elite.

Disagree. There’s always something.

Yes. Politifact did a recent write-up, with some interesting points...

"The files are not made up by anyone — they collectively represent investigative evidence and findings from law enforcement documents, victims’ testimonies, and court cases."

"The Epstein files, refer to the federal government’s investigative files pertaining to the prosecution of deceased sex offender Jeffrey Epstein."

"In 2007, while Bush was president, federal investigators at the FBI and U.S. attorney's office prepared to indict Epstein, but negotiations between Epstein’s lawyers and the U.S. attorney's office in Florida’s Southern District led by Alexander Acosta resulted in a secret deal that let Epstein avoid federal charges."

"The Justice Department’s 2020 report said Epstein spent the next decade, from 2009 to 2019, embroiled in legal battles with victims who were seeking monetary damages and challenging the validity of the non-prosecution agreement. During this period, the U.S. attorney’s office fought efforts to unseal documents."

"Maxwell’s federal court trial happened in November 2021. She was convicted on five counts related to sex trafficking of minors between 1994 and 2004. She was sentenced in 2022 to 20 years in prison. Maxwell’s trial involved the unsealing of documents from the 2017 settled defamation suit and of bank records, photos, and flight logs, but the judge restricted the release of Maxwell’s entire address book which some believe could hold incriminating details about "clients" involved in sex trafficking."

"On July 17, the Trump administration fired for undisclosed reasons Maurene Comey, the federal prosecutor who worked on the Epstein and Maxwell cases and James Comey’s daughter."

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2025/jul/18/...

"Maxwell’s federal court trial happened in November 2021. She was convicted on five counts related to sex trafficking of minors between 1994 and 2004. She was sentenced in 2022 to 20 years in prison. Maxwell’s trial involved the unsealing of documents from the 2017 settled defamation suit and of bank records, photos, and flight logs, but the judge restricted the release of Maxwell’s entire address book which some believe could hold incriminating details about "clients" involved in sex trafficking."

Yeah, almost all of that evidence has been released to the public already. That's why MAGA were disappointed with the Binders, Volume 1 that were distributed at a press conference earlier this year.

https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2022/the-jud...

It's vastly more likely that the unreleased portions of Maxwell's entire address book have details about victims rather than "clients."

Even if there’s nothing there, there’s going to be something there.

The Epstein files will be one humongous Rorschach Test.

What is this?

Why it’s the giant pedo ring that implicates thousands of Democrats!

And this?

Clearly, it’s Donald Trump.

albaby1: The most likely explanation is not the "grand conspiracy of probably hundreds of people from both parties at this point" one. It's that there's nothing interesting in the records of the Epstein case, nothing different or more illuminating than what we already know.

Well, you're a smart guy and I usually agree with you but I gotta say this: Trump's undying commitment to the cover-up -- including making Moses Johnson perform a complete 180 on releasing all of the Epstein files and sending his congressional cultists home early on summer vaca -- only makes sense if there's something really damning about Trump in the Epstein files.

If the Trump sweetheart enigma birthday letter was the worst of what's in there, why wouldn't Trump let 'er rip and now make the Epstein files public?

No, sorry... there's gotta be something worse in there for Pedo Don.

If the Trump sweetheart enigma birthday letter was the worst of what's in there, why wouldn't Trump let 'er rip and now make the Epstein files public?

Because that would be terrible for him, politically.

It's what I've been talking about in this thread. A sizable part of the MAGA base is powered by the belief that the government possesses conclusive and shocking evidence that the rich and powerful have regularly been engaged in pedophilia. That they could go out and arrest a bunch of these folks tomorrow, but that they are choosing not to because they are corruptly in thrall to the Powers That Be. This goes back well before Epstein - it was an animating force behind the QAnon movement. It's an eschatological belief framework. The government has been covering up this terrible abuse of kids for years, Trump will be elected and finally expose it, and all those horrible people who have been having sex with kids will be hauled off to jail.

That's what they were told. First by Q, then by a sizable industry of influencers, and then by the political operations of MAGA (especially after several of those influencers were elevated into positions within MAGA). And a sizable portion of his MAGA base firmly believes that the Establishment Powers were deeply involved in concealing sex abuse. It gave those Trump supporters enthusiasm and energy and commitment and a deep belief that their movement was an important factor in correcting one of the worst injustices and conspiracies in our country's history.

They will be exceedingly angry if Trump were to tell them that there's nothing there. The most likely response will be disbelief and to start thinking Trump's part of the cover-up: if Trump isn't marching the Evil Sex Abusers off to jail, then he must be part of the Evil Sex Abuser Protection Establishment. They can't have been wrong about the Establishment Politicians engaging in terrible sex abuse. That would mean that all their anger, all their sense of horrible injustice, all of the time and energy they devoted to all of this was wasted. That can't be correct.

But even for the ones that accept his explanation, it's still bad for him - because if they accept they were deceived about this, they'll become less enthusiastic about him and his political project. That part of the base doesn't strongly care about tax cuts and tariff rates and shutting down USAID or more stringent Medicaid access: they were excited because they were on the side of Good in the face of Unthinkable Evil. Take away the Unthinkable Evil....and what are they left with?

albaby1: They will be exceedingly angry if Trump were to tell them that there's nothing there. The most likely response will be disbelief and to start thinking Trump's part of the cover-up: if Trump isn't marching the Evil Sex Abusers off to jail, then he must be part of the Evil Sex Abuser Protection Establishment.

Yeah, no.

Pedo Donald currently has the Epstein files and no one's being marched off to jail. He released the JFK files and he released the MLK files. But he's not releasing the Jeffrey Epstein files, even going so far as to call them a “hoax.”

So he's doing exactly what you claim he cannot do: not deliver the goods to the MAGAts.

In addition, they're so frightened by this whole Epstein Affair that they're holding press briefings to accuse former president Obama of “treasonous conspiracy” backed by “irrefutable evidence.”

And let's be real here: there are tons of photos, videos, audio, flight logs, letters, conversations, and more. There's certainly enough evidence to bring at least a few “Evil Sex Abusers” to trial.

Besides, and I write this with conviction: Trump is a pedophile.

Pedo Donald currently has the Epstein files and no one's being marched off to jail. He released the JFK files and he released the MLK files. But he's not releasing the Jeffrey Epstein files, even going so far as to call them a “hoax.”

So he's doing exactly what you claim he cannot do: not deliver the goods to the MAGAts.

Oh, don't misunderstand - when I say he can't not deliver the goods to MAGA (awkward double-negative there), I don't mean that it's not possible for him to fail to release the files. I mean, it's not against the laws of physics.

But rather, holding back the files is not something that he can do without paying a heavy political price. His constituents believe that there's something important in the files. So they're going to keep demanding that the files be released until they get to see the something important.

What is impossible for him to do (IMHO) is release any material that has anything of importance to it - because I don't think such material exists. There's literally millions of pages that are in the DOJ files, but most of it will probably be irrelevant and useless - they probably have a copy of every piece of paper he had in his possession, 99.99% of which were things that have nothing to do with anything.

Yes, there are photos, videos, audio, flight logs, letters and conversations and more that were germane to the crimes - and I have little doubt that all of that information that would be relevant to anything has either already been released or can't be released because it's sealed or has to do with victims.

They will be exceedingly angry if Trump were to tell them that there's nothing there.

They will be angrier if files are withheld. I think the Felon should release everything (except perhaps victims' names), and let the chips fall. Then he can honestly say "that's everything". Instead, his followers are thinking he's part of the cover-up. I think releasing the files will result in less damage to him than the perception that he is furthering a cover-up.

I'm perfectly fine with him getting smeared by this. I'm just saying I think that would be the less-damaging move.

And if any Dems are implicated, investigate them, too. I'm also OK with that.

They will be angrier if files are withheld. I think the Felon should release everything (except perhaps victims' names), and let the chips fall. Then he can honestly say "that's everything". Instead, his followers are thinking he's part of the cover-up. I think releasing the files will result in less damage to him than the perception that he is furthering a cover-up.

I mean - can they do that? There are rules governing materials seized in a criminal investigation. They can't just publish everything.

People talk of "the Epstein files" as if that collection of documents represents the corpus of material relevant to his crimes. But it's not like a criminal file that contains the evidence, witness testimony, flight logs, etc. that pertains just to his criminal or potentially criminal activities. It's going to be everything. The feds would have seized every single piece of paper in his home and business, every computer, every phone, every photo, every document.

So they've got mountains of things like phone bills, tax records, personal correspondence, credit card statements, utility records, medical records, probably a million emails (ranging from significant ones to "$1 off at CVS"), appliance manuals, and a thousand other types of records. Imagine your life, and take every single piece of paper in your home or office and every single file in your computer printed out - the pages and pages and pages of that. If you were accused of a serious federal crime, every single sheet would be in the government's hands. And there are laws that govern what they're allowed to do with that information. They're allowed to use that information in a ton of ways, but they can't just publish your bank records if they arrest you for getting into a bar fight.

"The Epstein Files" will have literally million pages of unrelated crap that has nothing to do with anything. Maxwell's discovery request to the government asked for everything they had on Epstein - they gave her 2.7 million pages in response. There's almost certainly no logistical way for the government to publish everything that's in there without carefully reviewing it, and even then there will still be lots of records that can't be disclosed for various reasons.

And people will then note that not everything was disclosed, and they'll say "Aha! Those are the records I need to see." Especially when the stuff that is disclosed is just stuff like copies of billing statements from his landscaping company and unsolicited credit card offers.

I mean - can they do that? There are rules governing materials seized in a criminal investigation. They can't just publish everything.


You likely know more than any of us here in that regard. I would assume that once the prosecution is over, everything is fair game (except names of victims, especially if they were minors). But maybe that's wrong.

"Aha! Those are the records I need to see." Especially when the stuff that is disclosed is just stuff like copies of billing statements from his landscaping company and unsolicited credit card offers.

Which is why you release it all. It's the problem of the people demanding it to sift through it, credit card offers and all. Though I suppose they could complain it's a tactic to hide the evidence in plain sight. Isn't there a legal thing where in discovery you just dump everything on opposing counsel? And hope they are so overwhelmed that they miss stuff?**



**That doesn't always work. Opposing counsel in the Alex Jones case found the phone/SMS records among all the other crap, and that destroyed Jones. So it may be a calculated risk. Or Jones' counsel was incompetent.

You likely know more than any of us here in that regard. I would assume that once the prosecution is over, everything is fair game (except names of victims, especially if they were minors). But maybe that's wrong.

Nope, that's wrong.

For example, it's pretty likely that at least some of those 2.7 million pages of documents are Epstein's medical records - documents from his doctors, copies of prescriptions, health insurance forms, and the like. Those are all protected from disclosure by governmental agencies. They're absolutely free to introduce those records in a court proceeding of any kind...but they aren't free to just publish them for the heck of it.

Isn't there a legal thing where in discovery you just dump everything on opposing counsel? And hope they are so overwhelmed that they miss stuff?**

Sure, and they did that with Maxwell. Her lawyers filed to delay her trial because they dumped so much information on her. But they're allowed to do that in the context of a criminal trial, because the defendant is allowed to see every piece of paper and because what the defendant can do with every piece of paper is limited by the court's discovery orders. So Maxwell gets to see Epstein's medical records (for example) to determine if that's useful for her defense, but only for the purposes of her defense. She doesn't have the legal right to publish his medical records. Similarly, the government has the right (nay the obligation) to provide Maxwell with Epstein's medical records, even though they couldn't just decide to publish them - because again, they're used for the purpose of the criminal justice proceeding.

The government can't just publish all of Epstein's medical records and auto loan statements and Costco membership cards and such simply because it wants to.

OK. First, I would be fine with withholding stuff that is legally private (e.g. HIPAA stuff). Minor victim's names, sure. I'm certain you could find some other items that legally would violate privacy laws if revealed. OK, fine. That still leaves a LOT of stuff, from what I know of the case.

However, if Maxwell had chosen to use some of that for some reason, wouldn't that then become public record as it is now part of a court case? How do you square that circle?

However, if Maxwell had chosen to use some of that for some reason, wouldn't that then become public record as it is now part of a court case? How do you square that circle?

Yes, it would become part of a court record. Because use of government documents in a court case is exempt from most statutes restricting disclosure. That doesn't mean the government can just publish documents that weren't used in a court case, which are still very much protected.

There are reasons for that difference. Perhaps most importantly, the judge in a legal proceeding can (and often does) order some of the court records sealed so that information that should be protected from disclosure will be.

No, sorry... there's gotta be something worse in there for Pedo Don.

But, I repeat, if there is it will never see the light of day. Bondi will see to that.

And it looks like they are setting up a deal with Maxwell to exonerate Trump in exchange for a pardon. If that seems too brazen...well, they don't see to worry about that sort of thing.

Post New

BYD FAQ

---

Contact Shrewd'm
Contact the developer of these message boards.