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... it's more like 2% at age 65.

It's been more than 30 years since I've taken a withdrawal anywhere near 4% of assets. Now that I'm taking SS and two small pensions, I may never make a retirement portfolio withdrawal again except for RMDs.

After a while you get to the point where you realize that the real luxury in retirement isn't the wealth. It's the fact that there's nothing you have to do and nobody you have to report to.

https://www.kiplinger.com/retirement/retirement-pl...

intercst

After a while you get to the point where you realize that the real luxury in retirement isn't the wealth. It's the fact that there's nothing you have to do and nobody you have to report to.


And the nothing you have to do is what makes retirement boring for some people.

I have come to the realization that there is no way I could go back to work in the office for 45+ hrs a week (work+commute). I still wouldn't mind working part time at home or if the office was close (15 minutes). That would depend on my health and while I feel good, we'll see what my latest physical says.

Also retirement is hugely different for those who don't come close to withdrawing 4% (excess money) compared to those struggling to have enough to cover the basics. While I am likely being overly conservative, I can say if I had another $500K or $1M we would be doing a lot more. Or maybe would have done something stupid and bought a too expensive house. Personally I'm at the point where I am happy to stay local, do my stuff on the computer, eat out and am not interested in lots of travel or expensive items.

The problem with retirement for most people is that it means you are old and getting older and you start having health issues and see friends and family members having issues as well.

Unfortunately that is part of life.

Most real life retirees don't take 4% ... it's more like 2% at age 65.

I don't believe that. I think that this survey was looking (perhaps unintentionally) at an atypical subset of 65 year old retirees.

intercst, you are in a VERY non-typical situation. You keep making the mistake of thinking that you are more typical than not.



"After a while you get to the point where you realize that the real luxury in retirement isn't the wealth. It's the fact that there's nothing you have to do and nobody you have to report to."
...
I still wouldn't mind working part time at home or if the office was close (15 minutes). That would depend on my health and while I feel good,


When I retired from Motorola I had been working on a flaw in the Network Time Protocol software program (ntpd on Linux), having to do with skewing the local time at startup in an obscure initial status after a power failure.
I deeply lived the NTP source code and the fixes for several weeks and was 90% finished when I left, and planned to complete it as soon as we settled down in our new location.

As few weeks later after we were all moved in and set up, I fired up the editor to make the final fixes and testing .... and discovered that I had exactly 0.00% interest in it. This was something that I swore up and down that I would finish, because our Motorola system badly needed it.

Interest in ANY kind of work dropped to zero. And I retired from a job that I loved almost as much as my wife.

As for filling time in retirement, a lot of the retirees around here play golf several times a week. I discovered thriftbooks.com and torrents, and now have more books and movies than I will finish in my lifetime.

All of this only happens, of course, when you retire with enough income and savings.



If we had another $500K or $1M nothing would change for us. We already have done as many cruises and travels as we want. The only place that we haven't seen is Antarctica - because my wife says it is too cold and she won't go.
Like many, the only IRA withdrawals we make are the RMD. Our kids will get a windfall when we finally croak.

Similar vibes though I'm only a year into retirement. I gave up supervising people in 2018, after having done so since I was 19 - continuously. Gave up work 7 years later and wouldn't go back if threw an extra zero in the paycheck.

Withdrawal rate year one was 2%. I'm trying to convince my wife for us to spend more...

Withdrawal rate year one was 2%. I'm trying to convince my wife for us to spend more...

Do what I recommended to my neighbor.

Book a cruise and tell her "The tickets were for a balcony cabin, same price for 1 person as for 2 people, and it is non-refundable."

Alaska is a good first cruise, so is Hawaii.


We started off with an end-of-season Alaska cruise in the year where the market was very very good to me.

We stopped after 50 cruises, since we'd been everywhere we wanted to see.

We've been on 7 cruises, so there's definitely appeal there. If I booked something without consulting her...well, that wouldn't go well ;-)

I'm frugal...she's 3 standard deviations frugal, which is both a feature and a bug.

We're actually trying to keep things low key as if the conditions are right, which are [Insert Things That Aren't Right Currently], we are moving to Hawai'i island, which will take care of that peskity not spending enough problem. Probably 3-ish years from now.

We've been on 7 cruises, so there's definitely appeal there. If I booked something without consulting her...well, that wouldn't go well ;-)

I'm frugal...she's 3 standard deviations frugal, which is both a feature and a bug.

Then I highly recommend two cruises. Both on Holland America.
One of the 10 day land/sea Alaska cruises. The land portion goes to Denali.
One is 7 days sea, 3 days land, the other is 3 days sea 7 days land.

We took both. The latter was the best if you've been to Alaska before. We took an inside cabin for the 3 days and didn't even unpack.

The other is a ~80 day Asia-Alaska-South Pacific cruise.
Book the cheapest balcony cabin. Not at the cruise line, at a broker like "Cruise Specialists" https://www.cruisespecialists.com/cruise-expert.as...
About 3-4 weeks before the sailing date, the cruise line will begin to make deals for cabin upgrade. Especially the highest category since not many people take those because of the high price. They'll accept offers so you can negotiate. We upgraded to the highest category, Neptune Suite, for what amounted to a 35% discount.
For the cruise line, better to get an extra $12,000 for a cabin that would otherwise be empty. The cabin travels with the ship whether empty or occupied. Plus they can then sell your original cheaper cabin to somebody else.

My wife loved it but she said "Don't tell me how much we paid."

Something that works on the 3 standard deviations frugal is "We made 2X in the market this year than this cruise costs."

Similar vibes....

Count me in this camp. I've changed careers a few times over my life, retiring out of my last working for a defense contractor. I really enjoyed many of those careers, including my time in the Air Force and that last job with that defense contractor as a systems engineer and test director. Once I got out of the fast pace and adrenaline rush and no longer had to do that, the only career I miss was that first one with the Air Force.

There always are things to do that are interesting and that keep us engaged; all that's necessary is that we poke around until we find something. Even just the process of poking around can be engaging.

Eric Hines

Something that works on the 3 standard deviations frugal is "We made 2X in the market this year than this cruise costs."

Indeed. I have to remind her of such things and this works.

the nothing you have to do is what makes retirement boring for some people.

Throughout most of my working life I was engaged in activities that I found interesting, challenging and rewarding, triggering meaningful and largely enjoyable engagement with others. So for me, the freedom of retirement has been something of a mixed bag, as I do miss the many satisfactions deriving from my erstwhile 'working' life.

Tom

<< rayvt: intercst, you are in a VERY non-typical situation. You keep making the mistake of thinking that you are more typical than not. >>

Not at all. I live in paid for home, drive a paid for 2020 Tesla Model Y (purchased about a year ago for $21,000 with the $4,000 used EV tax credit) and reside in a state with low property taxes and no state income tax. My basic budget for living expenses in 2026 is only $20,000/year -- same as the 4% withdrawal from the $500,000 retirement portfolio I started with in 1994. Of course, if I want to spend $100,000 on a vacation or have a $1 MM emergency, I can afford to fund it. That's obviously unusual. But there are a lot of retirees with a mortgage free home and a paid for automobile who live on surprisingly little.

About 30 years ago there was an article in either Fortune magazine or the WSJ where a reporter covering the BRK annual shareholder meeting in Omaha observed that the attendees weren't dressed up like the other Fortune 500 annual meetings he'd reported on.

"This is the largest collection of millionaires living on $30,000/year."

intercst

“My basic budget for living expenses in 2026 is only $20,000/year”.

WTAF?!?
😳
The thrifty food budget for two codgers is over $500/month, or $6,000/yr. Your internet and cell service would be $200/month on average. Utilities have to cost around $150-200 a month, and I know you’re not paying zero in taxes. That’s at least $1200 of your $1,666.67 a month, so you basically stare at each other and take occasional walks to the library for retirement?

Your annual budget seems a tad austere.

{{ The thrifty food budget for two codgers is over $500/month, or $6,000/yr. Your internet and cell service would be $200/month on average. Utilities have to cost around $150-200 a month, and I know you’re not paying zero in taxes. That’s at least $1200 of your $1,666.67 a month, so you basically stare at each other and take occasional walks to the library for retirement?

Your annual budget seems a tad austere. >>

I'd be surprised if I pay more than $200/month for food since I rarely eat in restaurants. Internet is $50/month for me and a year's worth phone service on Tracfone is $130, call it $60/month. Between gas, electric and water I'm probably paying $200/month for utilities. Property taxes and HOA fees are $500/month. It costs me about $500/year to insure the Tesla ($1 MM liability only, I can afford to replace the vehicle if it's damaged or stolen so I don't carry collision or comp.) I'm able to do all my charging at home on a 110 volt plug at a cost of less than 9 cents per kwh. My Tesla app tells me that I've spent $61 in the 11 months I've owned the vehicle. In Washington State, electricity is almost free. {{ LOL }}

Of course, that $20,000/year doesn't include any vacations. I've managed my retirement portfolio over the past 30 years to minimize interest and dividend income. My preference is take my portfolio withdrawals in capital gains and tax paid returns of capital. I didn't start paying much in the way of taxes until I started taking Social Security at age 69, despite a 6-figure annual portfolio withdrawal.

I believe a married couple can take about a $150,000/yr portfolio withdrawal for 2026 in the 0% bracket as long as all their income is qualified dividends and capital gains.

intercst

Congratulations! You’re officially poor.

https://aspe.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/documents...

This little exercise in retirement budgeting demonstrates that our official poverty line is a crock.

so you basically stare at each other and take occasional walks to the library for retirement?

IIRC, there is no "other" There is and has only ever been "one".
Who hit an investment jackpot in his 30's.
A $500,000 retirement portfolio in 1994 for someone in their 30's is a whole bunch and VERY non-typical.

Not that there is anything wrong with any of that, just that it is not typical.



Reminds me of a youtube video I just saw by a financial advisor talking about taking Social Security at 62 vs. 70.
Using the example of a 62 year old couple with $3.5 million in retirement accounts.
(That's when a large number of viewers bailed out, based on the comments.)

Most of my life I was single and lived on my own. Then I got married in my late 50s, covid hit, inflation hit, etc. Needless to say the cost of living is a ton higher now, than it was in 2018.

While my work involved being quite detailed, and at times I can get very detailed oriented (such as planning trips), I generally hate doing boring and repetitive things like tracking expenses, budgets, etc. Never, ever, did one while working. Had money put in 401K plans and savings and kind of knew if I was spending too much to dial it back and it worked well.

Long way of saying in retirement I've been trying to get a better grip of expenses and figured out before food, clothing, maintenance costs (house,car, etc.) our kind of minimum monthly expenses are $4,200.

That includes insurance (homeowners, car, health, umbrella), taxes (income, property) utilities, cell, streaming, etc. It probably is a bit high since last year my taxes were higher due to pulling money out of an inherited account so the income was higher than what we actually spent.

So call it $4,000 a month. Then put back food, clothing (pretty low), medical expenses, house/car maintenance, etc.
I would say on the low end we could get by on $6,000 a month excluding any large house issues. Obviously if we had to cut back further we could always downsize the house, etc. but the basic costs of items just goes up and up and utilities companies are raising rates 5-10% a year, insurance companies, etc. All of which outpace most peoples' increases in income unless they have a large investment portfolio and that goes up.

$20K? $30K? $40K? A year? No way. Maybe if you lived in some rural place in Kentucky or somewhere. And we aren't big spenders. No expensive cars, etc. We eat out more than most but that isn't even in that $4,200 a month budge I mentioned.

I can recall about 10 yrs ago figuring I could easily live off $3K a month but that was pre-covid and before every company decided to take everything they can get from consumers.

Rich

“ Congratulations! You’re officially poor.

https://aspe.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/documents...

This little exercise in retirement budgeting demonstrates that our official poverty line is a crock.”

He’s single and lives on $20k with a paid off house, car, etc and can afford to self-insure.

Not remotely comparable to the poverty line numbers. Working poor got to pay rent, feed the kids, get to work.

a year's worth phone service on Tracfone is $130

Amen! I do the same...

But otherwise...I'm single, retired, age 65, my condo (a lower end one at that) is paid off, car is paid off, and other than doing some traveling I live quite simply. My main activities are walking the dog and beach volleyball, neither of which costs a dime. I live in southern California--high cost of living--but I don't ever run heat or A/C in my home. My gas and electric bills are minimal. And last year I spent...nearly $90K, even while getting hefty ACA health insurance subsidies. $10K of that was travel, $8K was property taxes, $10K was income taxes, $1K FICA (I did work a little), $5K charitable contributions, $3500 to get an estate plan, $5K doing some home renovations.

But even if you back out those "frills" (income tax is required, but I could have used my Roth to manipulate taxable income even more than I already did to get the ACA subsidies, and property tax is obviously required but I'm in a high tax region), I spent in the neighborhood of $45-50K. I eat out some, though not at high end establishments, and I like to eat good quality food so I pay more for groceries (yes, I use that word!). I don't buy expensive clothes (can you say "Costco"?). I pay too much for cable TV, but that's still just $200/month, and this year I'm looking to lower that.

To get to $20K/year? Wow, that would take a lot! Not having sales tax would help (where I live it's 9%), but I'd really have to scale back and focus more than I want to on pinching pennies. If the stock market tanks, I may need to do that, but otherwise I'll keep doing what I do.

I'd be surprised if I pay more than $200/month for food

If you're not tracking it, then yes, I suspect you would indeed be surprised at how much you are spending on food

<< Congratulations! You’re officially poor.>>

Exactly! You can live very well if you learn how to (legally) do your taxes right. It probably even more important than investing acumen.

<< This little exercise in retirement budgeting demonstrates that our official poverty line is a crock.>>

The Federal poverty line is a crock, but not in the direction you likely think it is.

https://www.thefp.com/p/why-do-americans-feel-poor...

My strategy over the last 40 years has been to identify the amount of "skim, scam and fraud" in the system and develop a workaround. For example, if a well-made automobile lasts 20 years or more, and it loses 65% of it purchase price to depreciation over the first 3 or 4 years of ownership (like my 2020 Tesla Model Y), you're better off finding someone else to pay the depreciation and buying it used, i.e. 2020 price $65,000, my 2025 purchase price $21,000.)

intercst

{{ Carpian, But even if you back out those "frills" (income tax is required, but I could have used my Roth to manipulate taxable income even more than I already did to get the ACA subsidies, and property tax is obviously required but I'm in a high tax region), I spent in the neighborhood of $45-50K. }}

I think that's reasonable. I lived near the beach in DelMar, North of San Diego for a couple of years in the late 1980's. If I had a paid for condo and automobile in San Diego, I suspect that $50k/year would be the best I could do.

I actually did add up my food spending for a month about 5 years ago and I got $120. (I'm mostly eating cheeseburgers, pizza, steak fajitas, etc. and buy in bulk when stuff is on sale. The most expensive 80/20 ground beef I have in my freezer cost $4/lb.

intercst

If you're not tracking it, then yes, I suspect you would indeed be surprised at how much you are spending on food

We are both naturally frugal, with the exception of food which we feel to be a false economy as a way to go cheap given it's long term impact on your health, though even our healthy choices trend towards value options. One of the great surprises in retirement has been the way our net worth has grown substantially, not shrunk. Semi retired at 54, (me,) and 58 DH, with DH continuing to do some contracting as needed by his last employer, as well as selling off stock options from working days. We just sold our last lot of options, and it's been a year since DH accepted a contract, which I guess makes us officially fully retired as of now. Semi-retirement took place in 2018.

That said, we don't deprive ourselves and travel extensively. Health care is a BIG chunk of our expenses, with my ACA premium alone being about $900/month for a high deductible plan. Had retiree healthcare until DH turned 65, now realizing how underappreciated that was until we had to do without.

We do a WAG budget of about $100K/year, intentionally high and based on credit card statements/on-line banking, never reached max spending, but really don't track it closely. The budget includes annual savings towards property maintenance and car replacement, some other longer term budget items, so it's logical that we don't spend those budgeted savings. I have always hated budgeting and given our frugal nature have found that it's not necessary. We do however track our net worth and have a high level of confidence that we will not run out of money, backed up by a 3rd party.

I very much doubt I could have talked DH into early retirement if we had felt a need to adhere to a budget.

IP

I actually did add up my food spending for a month about 5 years ago and I got $120. (I'm mostly eating cheeseburgers, pizza, steak fajitas, etc. and buy in bulk when stuff is on sale. The most expensive 80/20 ground beef I have in my freezer cost $4/lb.)

No fruit/veggies in sight. Your long term costs of this way of eating is higher than you think.

I am thrilled to pick up $0.39 frozen turkeys, cooking them regularly for sandwiches and soup, (packing the extra into the freezer for later,) or deboning a Costco $5 rotisserie chicken that yields about 3 lbs of meat each, plus the bones to make bone broth. Scallops at about $18/lb, wild caught salmon at $12/lb or grass fed 90% lean ground beef at $9/lb is not a splurge, however. All served with generous amounts of whatever vegetable looks good. Adding in the pre-cooked chicken or turkey to a stir-fry is a snap, and left over crispy skin salmon amazing on top of a salad. Tofu can also be a cheap approach to good eating, with plenty of easy recipes at your fingertips via the web.

As a teen on my own, trying to survive in a high cost of living town during stagflationary times, I learned how to make my grocery purchases count. It is such a luxury to buy exactly what I want, and fortunate that I still tend towards value.

IP,
who will always be grateful to that WIC distributor who saw skinny me walking by, giving me "extras" he had on hand

{{ No fruit/veggies in sight }}

I eat 9 servings of fruits and vegetables every day. (apples, bananas, pineapple,and a large garden salad with dinner every evening.) It balances out the cheeseburgers and pizza.

intercst

We are both naturally frugal, with the exception of food which we feel to be a false economy as a way to go cheap given it's long term impact on your health,...

I was a starving student, especially in grad school. One of the foreign students in my research collaboration made that exact point. Should have thought of it before. After that, I had no "budget" for food. It cost what it cost, and I mostly cooked for myself. Which caused me to learn how to cook, because the 3 or 4 things I knew how to make got really tiresome really fast. ("Cooking at the Academy" taught me a lot, and was structured just like the lectures I was used to in grad school...so it was perfect for me.)

Prior to that, I would get cello packets of ramen on sale 10/$1. After that conversation with my colleague, I never bought another one.

I often wonder about "servings". In your case, "9 servings". I don't think I eat a total of 9 servings of food a day (fruits, veggies, meats, chips, nuts). Maybe I just define "servings" differently? I generally have two meals per day. Difficult to parse since often the meal will have different food groups mixed together (e.g. stir fry...noodles, chicken, onion and carrots and other stuff). But, let's be generous and say I get a "serving" of carbs, meats, and veggies each meal. That's six TOTAL. A handful of nuts, or a square of chocolate, or a dozen grapes isn't really a "serving", and that's about all I have between meals.

I can't conceive of nine servings of anything every day.

A serving is just that. If you have a tomahawk steak with broccoli, mashed potatoes and a side salad, you just had three servings of veggies.

{{ I often wonder about "servings" }}

The NIH prints the serving size on the package. For canned pineapple, 3 slices is one serving and there are 10 slices in a can.

A balanced diet has about 20-25 servings per day

https://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/dash-eating-plan#...

intercst

I can't conceive of nine servings of anything every day.

Allow me to introduce you to good bourbon.

so you basically stare at each other and take occasional walks to the library for retirement?

IIRC, there is no "other" There is and has only ever been "one".
Who hit an investment jackpot in his 30's.
A $500,000 retirement portfolio in 1994 for someone in their 30's is a whole bunch and VERY non-typical.

Not that there is anything wrong with any of that, just that it is not typical.



Reminds me of a youtube video I just saw by a financial advisor talking about taking Social Security at 62 vs. 70.
Using the example of a 62 year old couple with $3.5 million in retirement accounts.
(That's when a large number of viewers bailed out, based on the comments.)

**********************

Sound like intercst has a lot of electrons with zero marginal utility.

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