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I'm looking into this and wondering if people have experience with this, particularly for Portugal or Spain, to share. I've poked around some of the expat boards but they seem primarily aimed at people who are immigrating under working visas. In general "golden visa" schemes seem to have fallen out of favor and are being shut down, but there are still a number of countries where it's possible at the moment. I'm old enough that this is probably the only way I could qualify for permanent EU residency with a path to citizenship, which is my goal.

One concern is how to get started. There are a number of easily-found consulting services that tout their expertise and ability to help, but I cannot tell what actual services they provide - they appear to want to connect you to a local immigration attorney which is understandable, but then what do they actually *do* other than provide information and reassurance? Before I get started with screening calls, I'm wondering about the feasibility of finding, screening, and working directly with such a lawyer. I'm guessing costs will be in the $10-20K range between travel, legal fees, government fees, etc.

Another is about the safety of the "investment". I would probably be looking at holding it in local stocks or government bonds, as buying real estate in another country feels like there are many potential ways to lose everything. Ideally it could be held in a brokerage I'm familiar with that operates there, such as say IBKR. I expect the assets to be basically flat during the holding period, but that's OK - being a fraud victim along the path is definitely not OK.

Spain has a pretty great program called a "non-lucrative Visa." Basically, you have to show a certain level of income, on the order of $30,000, have proof of health insurance, and promise not work (I believe this even applies to remote work). The visa is good for one year, after which you can reapply for up to five years, at which time you can apply for permanent residence status.

You don’t need a lawyer to get residency in another country and I never even entertained such an idea, even early on when I had done very little reading.

You also don’t need a consultant. They to lure people into their net and make money on providing the same info written even more clearly on every government residency application website.

Sometimes agency/consultants claim to have special info and can “connect you with” this or that banker, but it is nonsense. You can connect any banker yourself just as quickly, and in fact most banks want your business.

You can contact the banks directly when you get to that part, but the general protocol is to meet them in person.

Another is about the safety of the "investment". I would probably be looking at holding it in local stocks or government bonds

It varies between European countries but if residency can be obtained via a bank “attestation letter” such as in Monaco (essentially the bank stating you have enough equity to satisfy the residency) then you can hold Berkshire or whatever else you are holding and you don’t need to buy any local equities.

You just allow the local bank to act as a stock broker and then only for whatever minimum equity amount is required for residency. What you are investing in can remain exactly the same as what you hold right now, and you will just have an extra broker which you an perhaps use for the stocks that you plan to almost never change (such as an index fund or Berkshire).

To get such an attestation letter the usual procedure is to visit the bank directly as part of your residency application.

I should have mentioned that renting an apartment is also one of the standard requirements if you are not buying a property. They can normally leased for one year and renewed each year, which is a good approach if you are tiptoeing in. You don’t want a 3 year lease and then leave after say 9 months.

If the country allows a bank attestation letter instead of needing you to buy a property, then I highly recommend to use that path, ie. to not buy a property and instead rent. Your rights when renting are strong in most of Europe and it is as good as owning a property in the practical sense (as you are unlikely moving for renovation projects), without the huge transaction costs and even larger opportunity cost on the capital if you change your mind and want to return to the US.

Go to the government website *directly* (rather than second hand info) where the residency requirements are explained.
There will be an English language version. You don’t need a lawyer or a consultant.

Also I recommend to try to increase you trust level quite a bit based on your wording in your post. I empathize that you want to be careful, but the locals on the whole will try to help you, Europe has been around for a while, and you will find the English language is normally used when reading government instructions intwnded for an international audience such as resident application procedures.

Be brave, trusting, but vigilant.. the opposite is overcautious, wanting a lawyer, and careless.

You’ll then be surprised how fast momentum start to takes hold as you make sense of application procedure, and the idea of needing a consultant a lawyer will even start to look bizarre.

- Manlobbi

Hi oddhack.

I have experience that I can share about an American citizen's
path to residency in Portugal, since that is one of the two
countries you mentioned. (Spain being the other one.)

Before I continue this thread, however, it might be a good idea
to mention your options in Portugal.

1. First, if you're planning to live here 8+ months per year, then
the Golden Visa/Investment route isn't necessary. The Golden
Visa was often used by people who wanted to bypass the "living
in Portugal" residency requirements. Even the 8 months/year can
be adjusted for residency under specific circumstances (e.g.
business travel abroad).

> I'm old enough that this is probably the only way I could
> qualify for permanent EU residency with a path to citizenship,
> which is my goal.

2. Would you be retiring in Portugal or do you plan to continue
to work/be employed whilst living here? I ask because that may
change how you approach meeting the requirements slightly.
I'm retired.

> Before I get started with screening calls, I'm wondering about
> the feasibility of finding, screening, and working directly with
> such a lawyer. I'm guessing costs will be in the $10-20K range
> between travel, legal fees, government fees, etc.

3. I handled everything myself without the use of a lawyer. It's
a pretty straightforward process and you can always hire a lawyer
if you get stuck. Note that lawyers and relocation agencies often
push the Golden Visa program because it generates larger fees.

If you can provide answers to (1) and (2), I'll let you know if
you can avoid (3) and avoid residency by "investment".

Kind regards,

-Rubic

Thanks, Rubic!

First, if you're planning to live here 8+ months per year, then the Golden Visa/Investment route isn't necessary.

While the low residency requirements of the golden visa are potentially attractive, I expect I would be moving permanently. I did not realize there was an 8+ months/year option and would love to hear more about that - does it have a path to permanent residency status?

Would you be retiring in Portugal or do you plan to continue to work/be employed whilst living here?

I expect I will be working about 5 more years - remote tech consulting, about 20 hours/week - then retirement. But I want to have the option to relocate by early next year, so a retirement visa would not be a good match.

A potentially odd thing about my case is that my two cats have to be able to relocate with me. I gather this is generally not an obstacle so long as they get health / vaxx certifications by the right vet. Although international plane travel is probably nightmarish for a cat. I actually looked at the possibility of taking them by sea, but it's either impossible or prohibitively expensive.

Thanks, Manlobbi! That is all good advice. Some of the countries offer the option of $X in an "bank account" to qualify for the golden visa, and if the bank account can indeed be a brokerage account holding BRK.B, that would be perfect for me. The other option is shares in "local companies" and given the largest companies on the Portugese exchange appear to have market cap ca. $16B that's a bit scary.

Also I recommend to try to increase you trust level quite a bit based on your wording in your post. I empathize that you want to be careful, but the locals on the whole will try to help you, Europe has been around for a while, and you will find the English language is normally used when reading government instructions intended for an international audience such as resident application procedures.

Yes, that's fair. I am not much concerned with the governmental parts of the process, but dealing with the local real estate system would be a huge unknown for me, and the golden visa "investment" levels are a significant fraction of my net worth, so I do feel some concern about that. N.b. I have been a renter my entire life in the US so buying property here would also be scary for me :-)

> While the low residency requirements of the golden visa are potentially
> attractive, I expect I would be moving permanently. I did not realize
> there was an 8+ months/year option and would love to hear more about
> that - does it have a path to permanent residency status?

You can apply for a D7 visa. This would provide an eventual path
toward permanent residency. It's initially for a 2-year residency
and then renewed every 3 years. There are a lot of details,
but basically:

- You are not an EU national.
- Have the funds to support yourself in Portugal.
- Clean criminal record.
- Spend at least 16 months in Portugal during the first 2-year period.
- Can show proof of residence in Portugal.

For the last item, a signed lease registered with the government is
sufficient. After living here for 5 years and passing a minimum
language proficiency test, you can apply for citizenship.

> I expect I will be working about 5 more years - remote tech
> consulting, about 20 hours/week - then retirement.

That's not a bad plan. Given that tech salaries are generally pretty
high, you probably won't have a problem meeting the minimum income
requirements, but how you document this income is important.

If you're working for an employer, it's more complicated than if
you work for yourself. If you are 62 or older, you can provide
documentation from Social Security (even if you haven't started
benefits yet) as part of your income requirement.

> A potentially odd thing about my case is that my two cats
> have to be able to relocate with me.

Not odd at all. Many people have moved here with their pets. The
process is strict, but if you follow the guidelines you shouldn't
have any problem. I'm familiar with someone who brought both of
their cats in soft carriers on their flight to Portugal.

You'll probably want to travel to Portugal (and/or Spain) on a
vacation to determine if it might be a good fit for you. The
relocation process can be done in stages, and you don't have
to commit to any large cash outlays until you get to the point
of signing a lease for accommodations to live here.

I'll be happy to address additional questions, but you should
also check out the Facebook group: Americans & FriendsPT
I actually loathe Facebook, but this group is an invaluable
source of up-to-date information on moving to Portugal, esp.
from an American perspective.

Boa sorte!

-Rubic

Rubic, do you have any insight into the time to go from starting the process (golden visa or D7/D8) to being able to move to Portugal? I see some comments online that the golden visa process can be up to 18 months long, which is a much longer timeframe than I expected, if true.

<< Rubic, do you have any insight into the time to go from starting the process (golden visa or D7/D8) to being able to move to Portugal? I see some comments online that the golden visa process can be up to 18 months long, which is a much longer timeframe than I expected, if true. >>

Let's ignore the Golden Visa since it doesn't make any sense for
your circumstances(*). So let's focus on the D7 visa.

Before you apply for the D7 visa, you'll want to visit the
country and decide where you'll live, because you'll need
an official lease agreement prior to your visa application.
You could potentially sign a lease to live somewhere in
a city you've never visited, but we can assume that won't be
the case in your situation ;-)

The general order of items to complete prior to applying for
your visa will be:

1. Obtain NIF (tax number)
2. Open a bank account in Portugal
3. FBI criminal background check
4. Proof of private health insurance coverage or travel insurance with medical benefits
5. Proof of accommodation in Portugal (most likely, a lease agreement)

This isn't a complete list, but these are the items that require
time and/or expense to obtain. There is other paperwork to do if
you want to import household goods or obtain a Portuguese driver's
license, but that can wait until your visa is approved.

Next, you will apply for an in-person appointment at the consulate
(or embassy). The location of this appointment is determined by
the US state you currently reside in. This appointment may be
scheduled anywhere from one, two, three or more months from when
you contact the consulate/embassy for an appointment.

Timing is one of the most stressful aspects of applying for
the visa. Decisions on visa applications may take anywhere from
15 to 60 days, though most are processed within 30 days. You can
apply no earlier than 6 months and no later than 15 days prior
to your intended arrival in Portugal.

You have 120 days from the visa validity date during which you
can reside in Portugal and convert this visa into a residence
permit. Once your visa is granted, you must arrive in Portugal
within 90 days to convert it into a residence permit. This visa
permits you to take two round-trips from the US to Portugal
during these 120 days.

So you can see it's best to have a lot of flexibility on your
part, but usually you can plan for 6-12 months from the time
you request a visa appointment.

-Rubic

------------------------------------------------------------

(*) Unless you're willing to risk €500,000 in a potentially
risky and unproductive rehabilitation project. Or in scientific
research. Or an art donation.

Thanks! Seeing a timeline like that is very helpful. I'm looking at the Facebook group you recommended and there's so much there, it's easy to get bogged down.

In my circumstance I believe the D8 (digital nomad) visa might be more appropriate, as I'd probably have to sell some Berkshire stock and put it into a dividend-payer to meet the passive income requirement :-) But D7 is possible. Hopefully the timeline would be about the same.

It's unfortunate to have to take out a lease many months in advance of actually being able to move in. Some concern for being responsible for an unoccupied property on another continent. Perhaps there are services that could look in occasionally?

I have been under the impression the golden visa also allows €500K in certain types of investment funds in addition to the donation options - though finding one that is low risk feels quite challenging.

<< I'm looking at the Facebook group you recommended and there's so much
there, it's easy to get bogged down. >>

Just take it one step at a time and it will become clear. In particular, the
FILES documents are useful and kept up-to-date.

<< In my circumstance I believe the D8 (digital nomad) visa might be more
appropriate, as I'd probably have to sell some Berkshire stock and put it into a
dividend-payer to meet the passive income requirement :-) But D7 is possible.
Hopefully the timeline would be about the same.>>

If you get to the point of seriously considering moving to another
country you'll want to consult with a local tax accountant who is
familiar with US taxes. There are usually certain things you can
set up whilst still a US resident (before you change residency)
to mitigate your foreign taxes.

<< It's unfortunate to have to take out a lease many months in advance of actually
being able to move in. >>

Yeah, I consider it as a one-time "migration" tax. From the government's
point of view, they don't want to grant a visa to someone who suddenly
becomes homeless once they're arrived here.

<< Some concern for being responsible for an unoccupied property on another
continent. Perhaps there are services that could look in occasionally? >>

If renting an apartment, it's probably not a problem. In my case I paid my
realtor a small fee to pick up my mail and check in periodically with my
apartment until I moved in.

<< I have been under the impression the golden visa also allows €500K in certain
types of investment funds in addition to the donation options - though finding
one that is low risk feels quite challenging. >>

I was somewhat flippant in my earlier response, but the Golden Visa
isn't really practical for your situation. I know people from certain
countries who opted for Golden Visas because: 1) they have a lot
of excess capital; 2) they can't stay in the Portugal long enough
(each year) to meet the residency requirements; 3) they need a bail-out
option if things get too complicated in their home country.

But more than that, I really want to drop the subject of the
Golden Visa. Anyone who pursues that route is going to be paying
fees to people who are more knowledgeable to walk them through
the process, not listening to some random guy on the internet.

Good luck with your research. Hopefully your questions will help
others who may be considering living abroad.

-Rubic

Thought I would offer an update on my expatriation journey. I spent literally months trying and failing to get fingerprints taken through USPS - a combination of human and technology factors - before admitting defeat and using a commercial channeler. Which I should have done much earlier. Once that was done things moved along relatively well - used a Lisbon attorney to acquire NIF / bank account, eventually beat the VFS agency website into submission enough to actually get an appointment (their humans are fine, but their database and UI appear to have been designed by ketamine-addicted code monkeys), and submitted the D8 visa application in early January. I hope for approval sometime in April though VFS provides essentially zero visibility into what happens after your appointment - is it sitting on a shelf at VFS? Has it been forwarded to the Counsulate? Who knows. The only data I actually have is that Chase has not paid the cashier's check for my visa fee yet, but that's not unusual.

I managed to find a cheap 12 month lease on a room in a shared house than can be cancelled on 10 days notice, though it is a real lease registered with the Finance portal as the visa application requires. I will probably never occupy it - rent an AirBnB on arrival while working with a local agent to find a real long-term rental - and the difference between paying 700 Euros for one month I'm not using it, and maybe 10,000 Euros for a long-term lease on an actual property I would not have seen beforehand, was compelling.

I had wanted to get out before January 20th. At this point I'm just hoping that the US is still a sufficiently functioning country by the time I get my visa that I can still get out. In particular that USDA has enough remaining employees to endorse the EU pet paperwork in the very narrow 10 day window that's required, because I am not going without my cats. My Hail Mary backup plan would be to drive them across the border into Canada (presuming we are not at war with Canada by April) and go through a Canadian vet for the paperwork. Hopefully it won't get that bad, that soon, but anything is imaginable now.

oddhack,

Parabéns. Faz boa viagem.

-Rubic

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