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Author: luxmain   😊 😞
Number: of 670 
Subject: Pfizer / pounding the table.
Date: 02/26/2023 5:57 PM
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No. of Recommendations: 7
I remember Jim talking about 'pounding the table' regarding ' Dollar tree I think?

I would like to share a table-pounding idea back in return. Actually I think this is my favourite idea for some time: Pfizer bought at its current price. What follows is opinion, please double-check it for yourself. Also, disclaimer: I bought some Pfizer stock for my account already before posting this.

The argument looks like this:

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Technical analysis: Sitting less than 1% above a support at 41.4, for the last 18 months. Or put more simply, as cheap as it's been in a long time.

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Fundamental analysis: low price/earnings, whether you choose forward earnings, current year, etc. Good yield. Low debt. Spare cash.

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Risks: Low? Has a variety of products; 170+ year history; has recently made enough cash to offset all past debt thanks to paxlovid and covid vaccines. It's a large blue chip company. There is a question of 'what replaces older products that fall off the patent cliff' and 'what if covid just fades away', but even assuming earnings go back to their pre-covid trend (but with net debt now wiped out), the price is still good and the risk is low. Interest rate/recession risk is almost non-existent. Energy crisis / war risk is non-existent. China/Russia risk is non-existent. Some acquisitions going on, but that seems to be the norm for big pharma. Perhaps some amazing new covid vaccine or treatment will come along and render paxlovid/mrna vaccines obsolete? Perhaps paxlovid will stop working against new strains of covid?

"Broad market crash" risk? As a defensive, Pfizer performed well the last time the market crashed.

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Moat: Pfizer has executed better than any other pharmaceutical company in the world w.r.t to covid. Has a monopoly on paxlovid and shared duopoly on MRNA vaccines. Moat is also improving because competitors are failing/disappearing:

a) Regeneron/Evusheld (monoclonal antibodies) - if I understand correctly, the original covid monoclonal antibodies don't work against modern strains, and I think some/most are no longer authorised for use? (e.g. see below)

https://www.pharmaceutical-technology.com/news/nic...

https://www.fiercepharma.com/pharma/fda-says-astra...

https://www.fda.gov/drugs/drug-safety-and-availabi...

Covid now mutates at such a rate (and with such a diversity of strains) that it is hard to imagine finding and producing and distributing monoclonal antibodies can be effective in a suitable timeframe. mAbs are also a very expensive treatment relative to paxlovid and especially relative to vaccination/boosters. I do not think we will see new mAb options for covid treatment any time soon.

b) non-MRNA vaccines, so far have proven neither as popular or as successful as MRNA vaccines.

c) Merck's molnupavir, a primary rival to Pfizer's paxlovid, has the alarming quality of increasing covid mutation rates. Some scientists & doctors are calling for it not to be used. Questions are also being raised over whether it actually helps much. Articles below are all from February 2023.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-00347-z

Nature: "COVID drug drives viral mutations ' and now some want to halt its use"

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/other/merck-s-cov...

https://www.yahoo.com/now/mercks-covid-19-treatmen...

and most concerningly:

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20230203/Molnupi...

"The findings also implied that, in at least some instances, viruses with a high number of molnupiravir-induced mutations have been transmitted to other persons, albeit in a restricted manner."

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Basically, Pfizer is in a relatively good situation in terms of business execution, risk, finances and competition. Yet the price is a hair's breadth away from the cheapest price in almost 2 years.

We face the risk of a broad market downturn and Pfizer has performed well under that circumstance in the past.

We face the risk of covid/bird flu crises and Pfizer has performed well under that circumstance in the past.

The ideal situation is for something to now trigger a change of sentiment and get the ball rolling in the upwards direction. Perhaps simply bouncing off the TA support / 18 month low will be enough by itself. Or, since Covid has been coming back like clockwork every 6 months or so, I'd suggest that will probably be a trigger - along with an associated revision upwards to expected earnings for 2023. Or perhaps a bird flu panic might bring market attention back to big pharma?

It's also possible we'll see a rotation into defensives generally if the market goes a bit risk-off, that will get the momentum sheep on board. Perhaps Pfizer will take some corporate action that triggers attention in the media.

Who knows? Whatever the trigger might be, my hope is to see the stock run quickly from $41.70 to about $55-60 again.

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As a final note, if I recall correctly, Jim had a view that any stock, growth or value, which is extremely likely to a) still be in business and b) be on a PER under 10, in 5 years time, relative to the price of purchase, is probably a decent bet.

With no net debt and PER somewhere between 8-13x right now, and almost 4% dividend available to be reinvested to reduce the effective PER in 5 years time even further - plus a very high chance of resurgences of covid in the next 5 years that require new vaccines and more paxlovid doses than expected - I believe Pfizer qualifies very well on the '5 year single digit PER' rule.

I welcome amendments/corrections/additions to the above thoughts, and I recommend that if this idea catches your attention, you should quickly research this for yourself and check if the ideas here are correct.

----------

lux

p.s. The last time Pfizer got to this level, a few months ago, it certainly didn't stay there very long, just minutes. I recall the day with considerable dismay. I was waiting to pile in at 41.5, but it bounced at 41.75 I think, and the next stop was.... $54. Very, very, very frustrating!
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Author: luxmain   😊 😞
Number: of 670 
Subject: Re: Pfizer / pounding the table.
Date: 02/26/2023 6:12 PM
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Just checked the price history on Yahoo:

Apparently in October, on the day after I was watching it closely, PFE hit $41.45 as the absolute low, but I don't even remember that happening! Perhaps I slept through it, or missed it as it happened and then blocked out the pain of the memory, or have otherwise forgotten the exact details of mid-October 2022.

Anyway for the record:

$41.45 was the absolute low in October it seems.

The absolute low on Friday last week was $41.51.

In late 2021, $40.94 and $41.04 were the absolute lows, a couple of days apart, shortly prior to Paxlovid being announced as successful then approved for emergency use.

Mid-early 2021 (early days of vaccination, long before paxlovid) was much a lower price, with a low point of $33.36

lux
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Author: kelbon   😊 😞
Number: of 48427 
Subject: Re: Pfizer / pounding the table.
Date: 02/26/2023 11:38 PM
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No. of Recommendations: 4
The explanation for Pfizer's sinking stock price seems to be fairly clear: over the last 30 days, earnings projections have been significantly reduced by a chorus of analysts. What is more, earnings growth over the next five years is now projected to be anemic, at best. For example, Yahoo, citing 18 analysts (at least for next year's net earnings) projects earnings growth for the next 5 Years (per annum) to be -5.45%. Other sources, more or less, agree. I can't find a consensus of earnings per share of more than $4 a share (per annum) for at least the next three years. Given this, Pfizer's present P/E ratio seems in the realm of fair value. The stock does however offer a generous and safe dividend.

On a risk reward basis Pfizer, given its current valuation/stock price, seems a fair bet given current conditions. But, a "table pounding idea"; I'm skeptical.
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Author: zoro   😊 😞
Number: of 48427 
Subject: Re: Pfizer / pounding the table.
Date: 02/27/2023 9:32 AM
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I've owned Pfizer for about 7 years as part of my "don't need to follow close" companies.
If it gets above $38 I take the dividends and invest them else where, below I may drip them in.
It would take low $30s before I would consider it a really good buy, IMO.

Paul
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Author: luxmain   😊 😞
Number: of 48427 
Subject: Re: Pfizer / pounding the table.
Date: 02/27/2023 3:50 PM
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Hello kelbon, thank you for your reply.

Unfortunately, I don't agree with the ideas you have presented, for reasons I'll explain.

I'll also extend a simple opportunity for you to easily 'prove my thesis wrong', at the end of this post.

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> The explanation for Pfizer's sinking stock price seems to be fairly clear

If that were so, then all the other times it dropped steadily down would likely make sense too, on the same basis.

However, they do not match that thesis - Pfizer made record earnings while it's price dropped in an identical way previously - so I would suggest that simple narratives are not usually correct ones.

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Here's an alternative simple narrative. Pfizer's sinking stock price recently is because the market has been 'risk on' since SP3600ish, and Pfizer is a defensive. This narrative is well-supported by the fact that all the other big pharma companies have seen a decline in prices lately, even though they don't have a corresponding risk of 'covid drug earnings cliff edge'.

https://finviz.com/map.ashx?t=sec&st=w13

For example, look at the "Pharma" section in the middle of this 3-month price change heatmap. JNJ -12%, LLY -12%, PFE -16%, BMY -12%, AMGN -17%, BIIB -11%. Even considering other categories of traditional defensive stocks we see the same sort of thing. CVX -12%, COP -16%, EOG -19%, OXY -16%. It's not a universal truth; XOM has held up, MRK and ABBV have held up. Consumer defensive (PG, KO, CL) is only -5%. But hopefully you see my point.

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Or here's another simple narrative. Pfizer's price has spiked with every major new covid wave, and dropped back again after covid falls out of the news. This has happened on and off fairly reliably for the last 18 months. The hype/news cycle appears to be drive many other companies (notably Nvidia on a PER around 100x at present), and it has driven Pfizer/Biontech/Moderna/Novavax's share price to record highs in the past few years already, and currently all are near the low end of their 52 week range, so it seems fair to assume Pfizer is also part of the covid hype/non-hype cycle in the news.

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Here's another simple narrative. Momentum traders tend to move out of stocks that are going down, because they're going down. It has always been so for probably hundreds of years. This causes prices to steadily slide up or down over time. It goes up because it went up, it goes down because it went down. Just now, Pfizer is a momentum trade in the downwards direction. Later it will be a momentum trade in the upwards direction.


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How can we tell which is 'the right one'? I don't think any of them are 'the right one'. It's a little bit of all of it probably. Earnings, hype, momentum, sector rotation.

Insisting on a single simple explanation may be emotionally appealing but it doesn't feel wise to me.

Anyway let's take a quick look at the 'simple narrative' you presented a bit closer, and see how it holds up to historical fact:

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> over the last 30 days, earnings projections have been significantly reduced by a chorus of analyst

"Analysts" have (slowly) updated their projections into line with Pfizer's own formally forecasted drop in revenue and earnings for 2023, which Pfizer announced *4 weeks ago*.

If 'we have realised 2022 earnings are to go down!' was the sole, simple reason for the stock price being down today, then the price should have dumped very hard 4 weeks ago to the current level when Pfizer told everyone their guidance was to expect far lower earnings.

It should have happened then when the information became available from the horse's mouth, rather than gradually over the following 4 weeks when someone random, sluggish and anonymous 'analysts' finally got around to reading Pfizer's report and updating their 'analysis' to reflect what Pfizer had told everyone already in the announcement 4 weeks ago.

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> What is more, earnings growth over the next five years is now projected to be anemic, at best.

Firstly, who needs earnings growth when you're on PER 10-11x?

That sort of PER year after year, plus inflation plus moat plus monopoly, is a gift directly from god.

Secondly, how accurate were 'Pfizer analysts' when they made 5y earning growth estimates in 2018? (answer: a million miles away! Not a single one saw 2021-2022 earnings coming ahead.)

Why listen to people who all got it totally wrong the last time?

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Frankly, I don't believe **anyone** can make a meaningful 1-year estimate of Pfizer's profitability today - including Pfizer themselves.

The primary determining factor of Pfizer's profitability being 'fine' or 'amazing', this year and next, depends on mutations in covid - a) their lethality and transmission characteristics b) their resistance to existing vaccines, to natural immunity, and to paxlovid.

**The future of covid, even 3 months hence, is presently completely unforeseeable even by the world's top experts in viral mutation.**

Depending on the random mutations in covid - Pfizer may have earnings somewhere in the range of 'roughly 8x' - if we get a bad variant out of nowhere, as we did with Alpha, Delta and Omicron - and a huge stockpile of paxlovid and fresh MRNA vaccines are urgently required globally.

Or, poorer earnings, perhaps around 13x, if covid is magically cured and Pfizer has to rely more on all the other medicines it sells (e.g. trend earnings pre-covid, but boosted up by the lack of debt payments).

I'm pulling 8x and 13x out of the air as examples of the range we're talking about.

You can estimate e.g. 13x formally by looking at trend earnings pre-covid (say 2019) and adjusting upwards by inflation, and subtracting out debt/interest payments in the business statements since the company is now zero net debt thanks to the covid windfalls, and adding in 2 fudge factors - expiry of older drugs and some level of paxlovid/vaccine sales regardless of what happens.

Likewise, for the 8x figure I'm simply taking 2022 earnings and assuming they repeat if we get the Omicron/Delta type scenario and a ton of vaccine and paxlovid is needed.

However, 8x-13x is certainly not the entire range of possibility.

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It's also possible a 'nightmare variant' might come along, with e.g. current-day 'off the charts' transmissibility, current-day 'highly resistant' immune escape, but combined with e.g. SARS-COV-1's (2002-2004) high lethality - it had a proven 9% mortality rate.

SARS-COV-1 is a hard proof that this very specific family of coronavirii we are dealing with as covid, can sometimes have super high lethality rates in humans unexpectedly, even in very advanced healthcare systems like Hong Kong's, depending on how mutations interact with our organs and immune systems.

So in addition to the likely 8-13x range on earnings, there's a bit of bonus 'lottery ticket' optionality, but let us hope humanity doesn't win that lottery.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SARS-CoV-1

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Anyway. For the sake of argument let's suppose we take a middle of the road figure.

You've mentioned $4/year for the next 3 years. Cool, let's go with it, for talking sake.

That would put Pfizer on a current PER of almost exactly 10x (at today's price of $40.80), for the next 3 years, with no net debt, and a global, hard-to-breach monopoly moat/

And with a product that is so 'non-discretionary' that you literally risk dying if someone doesn't buy it for you.

Total addressable market: every human on the planet, at a fair price anyone can afford.

Is this not a table pounding bargain?

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Perhaps I am simply ignorant of the options out there.

Do you know of better alternatives that would be more table-pounding than this, today?

I would like to ask you to name 5 other companies in the top 100 of the SP500, which have an amazing Pfizer-like combination of both value and quality and highly-defended monopoly moats, as Pfizer has right now at the current price.

Recap of what I'm looking for in these 5 candidates:

- Highly defended moat surrounding a global monopoly/duopoly on big money earners.

- - (By moat I mean limited competition and high barriers to new products e.g. the cost and difficulty of clinical trials + medical sales/logistics)

- Non-commodity product that is so essential you may literally die if you don't buy it.

- Credible expectation of around PER 10x continuing for years to come in a reasonable outlook.

- And a 4% yield **on top** while maintaining that PER 10x...

- Net cash / zero debt.

- Long established company, e.g. >20 year track record, preferably with a diverse product range to back up earnings (not a one-trick pony).

- Demonstrated ability to execute on R&D, validation, production, and sales/distribution at global scale at hitherto-unforeseen speed, in order to exploit global crises/opportunities.

- Low or zero exposure to present risks from China, Russia, energy crisis, inflation.

- Low to zero chance of company falling apart within 3 years.

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It is my sincere hope you can show me 5 such companies, because, by god, I would love to invest in all of them!

The closest example I can think of is perhaps: TSMC (big moat, excellent in execution, 12-13x PER, 2% dividend, semi-essential, but a large china risk).

If you do not think you can provide 5 similar alternatives from among the top 100 SP500 companies, will you agree that this could be a table-pounder, at least for the sort of person like myself who likes "Quality at a Value Price" types of company?

Thank you again for your reply.

lux
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Author: luxmain   😊 😞
Number: of 48427 
Subject: Re: Pfizer / pounding the table.
Date: 02/27/2023 3:51 PM
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> I've owned Pfizer for about 7 years as part of my "don't need to follow close" companies. If it gets above $38 I take the dividends and invest them else where, below I may drip them in. It would take low $30s before I would consider it a really good buy, IMO. Paul

Hello Paul,

Unfortunately, though I learned a lot about you from this post, I didn't learn anything about Pfizer.

Do you have any views on Pfizer itself, that guide the numbers you've mentioned?

lux
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Author: kelbon   😊 😞
Number: of 48427 
Subject: Re: Pfizer / pounding the table.
Date: 02/27/2023 9:25 PM
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Lux,

However, they do not match that thesis - Pfizer made record earnings while it's price dropped in an identical way previously - so I would suggest that simple narratives are not usually correct ones.

Re: stock prices, there are often many reasons that account for price swings. However, the one thing, above all, that usually drives the valuation of most stocks'over a reasonable period of years'is net earnings growth, lack there of, or falling earnings year over year. So, to my mind, one of the go-to things to reach for when wondering about a falling, or rising, stock price is earnings history, reported earnings, and earnings projections. Earnings are important, but so are other factors when considering whether a stock is a buy, hold, or sell.


For example, look at the "Pharma" section in the middle of this 3-month price change heatmap. JNJ -12%, LLY -12%, PFE -16%, BMY -12%, AMGN -17%, BIIB -11%. Even considering other categories of traditional defensive stocks we see the same sort of thing. CVX -12%, COP -16%, EOG -19%, OXY -16%. It's not a universal truth; XOM has held up, MRK and ABBV have held up. Consumer defensive (PG, KO, CL) is only -5%. But hopefully you see my point.

I see your point and acknowledge it. In a choppy sea all ships in the fleet are going to experience a similar motion. The stock market is sometimes plain sailing and sometimes stormy weather; different conditions that effect all at sea.


As for Covid, it's generally assumed (rightly or wrongly) that it has become, and is likely to stay, endemic. Time will tell. As you note if there are wide spread highly infectious mutations then that is likely to boost Pfizer's bottom line some. Though, persuading significantly more people to get vaccinated, boosted, and treated might be a bit of an uphill battle.


Do you know of better alternatives that would be more table-pounding than this, today?

No'

But I could probably come up with five companies that seem as attractive (to me) as Pfizer does. I don't consider PFE a table pounding buy; I can't identify any one company'let alone five'as table pounding buys given the uncertainty that the economy, and the world, face at the moment.

As I wrote previously, 'on a risk reward basis Pfizer, given its current valuation/stock price, seems a fair bet given current conditions.' It is on my watch list.

It may be that I'm a little jaded when it comes to my expectations about Pfizer. I've owned the stock for probably close to 20 years. The returns have been disappointing, but it has been modestly profitable none the less.

Something that strikes me about PFE's earnings history are the 12 years from 2007 to 2019. It took until 2019 for EPS to best their record earnings of 2007. (Value Line data). Regardless, the stock price about doubled, mainly down to P/E expansion during that stretch. Perhaps more because of 'ocean conditions' than company specifics?

If you think that Pfizer is a table pounding buy then back up the truck; you probably have more to gain than lose, given enough time.

kelbon


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Author: rnam   😊 😞
Number: of 48427 
Subject: Re: Pfizer / pounding the table.
Date: 02/28/2023 1:24 AM
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Long established company, e.g. >20 year track record, preferably with a diverse product range to back up earnings (not a one-trick pony).

- Demonstrated ability to execute on R&D,'


The market as a whole doesn't agree with you on those two points.

Pfizer's 20 year total return has been terrible. At low 40s its price is same as in late 1990s. No price appreciation for almost 25 years. Some of Pfizer's spin-offs like Zoetis has done well, so if you held on to them your returns would be better.

Pfizer's home grown R&D has not been productive. It continuously resorts to expensive acquisitions to replace its patent expiration revenues. The R&D for its spectacularly successful MRNA Covid vaccine was actually done by its German partner BioNTech. In the past Pfizer made acquisitions of mega companies to acquire rights to parented drugs (Lipitor from WarnerLambert, Prevnar from Wyeth). As is the case with most large acquisitions Pfizer overpaid and struggled to justify it. Pfizer is the poster child for a company pursuing growth through expensive acquisitions.

The current CEO pretty much had to promise Wall St that it would no longer pursue acquisition of large successful companies, only make selective acquisitions/partnerships of promising companies/drug candidates. The recent news thar Pfizer is negotiating to acquire Soligen a $30 billion company at a substantial premium, is probably the reason for the recent slide in share price.

Wall St and most investors just don't trust Pfizer management won't squander billions pursuing expensive growth. Among large cap pharmaceutical companies the premium valuation goes to disciplined companies like Eli Lilly and Novo Nordisk with strong franchises in growth areas like diabetes treatments.
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Author: BenSolar   😊 😞
Number: of 70 
Subject: Re: Pfizer / pounding the table.
Date: 02/28/2023 11:15 AM
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Pfizer is the poster child for a company pursuing growth through expensive acquisitions.


One of the things I've liked about Moderna's approach to their Covid profit windfall is they've been very restrained about pursuing acquisitions and instead have invested in building out their own R&D, production and sales capacity.

Of course they don't have the numerous streams of income that Pfizer does, so they'll feel the decline in Covid revenue far more sharply, and it's speculative that they'll succeed in bringing other blockbusters to market, or that Covid vaccine sales would rebound in any significant way from the levels projected for this year.
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Author: rnam   😊 😞
Number: of 70 
Subject: Re: Pfizer / pounding the table.
Date: 03/13/2023 7:54 PM
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No. of Recommendations: 6
Pfizer is paying $43 billion to acquire Soligen.

'Seagen expects to generate approximately $2.2 billion of revenue in 2023, representing 12% year-over-year growth, from its four in-line medicines, royalties and collaboration and license agreements. When combining the expected strong growth trajectories for these medicines with candidates that could emerge from Seagen's pipeline, subject to clinical trial and regulatory success, Pfizer believes Seagen could contribute more than $10 billion in risk-adjusted revenues in 2030, with potential significant growth beyond 2030.'

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-re...

So Pfizer is paying 20 times 2023 sales or 4.3 times possible 2030 sales to 'invest' in battling cancer. PFE itself trades for 2.4 EV to TTM sales and 3.4 times forward sales.

Looks their own R&D can't deliver, so they have to repeatedly 'invest' in costlier acquisitions.

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4587037-pfizer-bu...
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Author: rnam   😊 😞
Number: of 70 
Subject: Re: Pfizer / pounding the table.
Date: 03/14/2023 8:34 AM
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From the FT newspaper today:

"Pfizer has spent more than $230bn on purchases since 2000. Its market value $227bn has risen only $102bn since then."

It would be better is Pfizer was split up and sold to different bidders.
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Author: richinmd   😊 😞
Number: of 70 
Subject: Re: Pfizer / pounding the table.
Date: 03/16/2023 1:15 PM
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I don't know the entire history but sometime back in the 1990s when I was young and stock commissions high, I bought several stocks as DRIPs (dividend reinvestment plans where you could reinvest dividends and buy more stock w/o paying any commissions) and one was Upjohn. That ended up being a rather confusing mess of acquisitions, mergers, spin offs. I think it included the following:

1995 Pharmacia & Upjohn was formed through the merger of Pharmacia AB and The Upjohn Company
2000 Pharmacia & Upjohn completed a merger with Monsanto and Searle creating Pharmacia
2002 Pharmacia completed the spin-off of its agricultural subsidiary, Monsanto Company.
2003 Pfizer Inc and Pharmacia Corporation began operating as a unified company
2020 Pfizer spun off its Upjohn unit which immediately merged with Mylan to form Viatris

Fortunately I never ended up with a huge amount and anything I sell I will use a rather low cost basis since I'm not sure I have kept all of the details above over the last 25+ years. I think in the past I used something close to a zero cost basis just to avoid tax issues.

And yeah, sometimes things get too big and need to break apart and start over.
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