Avoid making negative or unhelpful posts, and instead focus on providing constructive feedback and ideas that can help to move the discussion forward.
- Manlobbi
Halls of Shrewd'm / US Policy❤
No. of Recommendations: 15
It's been seven-plus hours since Secret Service agents fired at a man and later captured him after he was spotted with an automatic weapon outside the grounds at Trump's golf course at Mar-a-lago within one hole of where Trump was playing. More details will emerge in the coming days but it's not too early to begin anticipating how this event will be turned into another front in the 2024 election battle and the larger political war and Rorschach test that American civics have become.
What is known is that the man involved in the incident had not yet actually FIRED his weapon but was clearly staking out a position that would be well within range of Trump on a normal round of golf. And it's worth re-mentioning the man was NOT actually ON the grounds of the course. He was outside a security fence in shrubbery able to point through a fence at the holes in front of him. The man fled the scene, left his weapon behind and was later captured and identified as a 58 year-old named Ryan Wesley Routh who appears to be originally from Hawaii and spent some time in North Carolina. Different outlets are pointing out he contributed a total of $140 dollars to various Democratic candidates since 2019 but also tweeted comments to Republican candidates encouraging them to stay in the race against Trump. He has eight arrests in North Carolina going back to roughly 2000, mostly for "minor offenses." (It isn't clear to me how minor offenses can consistently result in arrests.) He also claims to have been active in recruiting people to fight in Ukraine against Russia and actually fighting in Ukraine, though there are no details on what that "service" was. Once source indicates he claimed to lead an organization called the International Volunteer Center (IVC) which stated it organized efforts to delivery humanitarian aid in Ukraine.
The golf course at Mar-a-lago is located "five minutes" from the actual Mar-a-lago club and contains 27 holes. The fact that it is "five minutes" from the main club means any time Trump is on the course, it is a completely separate security zone that must be somehow guarded by the Secret Service, while still protecting any other Trump family members still remaining at the club itself. Given that Trump golfs frequently and a zone should be ideally secured hours before he enters the zone, frequent golf outings essentially double the Secret Service work load. If the Secret Service was going to guard the ENTIRE zone, they would have to secure the ENTIRE perimeter which would be astronomically expensive and impractical... So they don't. Instead, the normal modus operandi seems to involve securing a smaller moving "bubble" that might be plus or minus one hole around the current hole he is playing, plus presumably any other holes that might be adjacent to the current hole.
In this golf course event, the would-be shooter was exactly that. He didn't even fire a shot. He was identified and shot AT and fled the scene without directing fire at Trump and was later apprehended. Given the nature of the threats facing any protectee, that's exactly what should happen.
That's a very difficult logistical task. But remember... Trump owns several golf courses and routinely plays at all of them, often in the same week. He held an outdoor press conference at his golf club in Rancho Palos Verdes near Los Angeles on Saturday, September 14 that required agent coverage to secure. That appeared to take place just outside the clubhouse next to a practice green.
Prior to the Trump era, the Secret Service was never funded and staffed to cover the logistics and costs of protecting a President or ex-President with four or five principal residences in five different states, each with dozens of acres of ground theoretically requiring full perimeter protection. Nixon had San Clemente. Carter had his house in Plains. Reagan had Rancho de Cielo. Bush had Kennebunkport. Clinton had... (I can't even find a reference to Clinton's non-WH residence during his term). Dubya had his ranch in Texas. Obama had a home in Chicago.
Think about it this way. If each Trump residence was going to be given the traditional perimeter monitoring and protection afforded to the properties owned by any prior President or ex-President, Trump's lifestyle essentially raised the budget requirement by a factor of 5x. Permanently. Beginning in 2017. Has the Secret Service budget increased by 5x since 2017? None of us will ever know but I'm pretty sure the answer is no.
Given the nature of a golf course amid a metropolitan area, here are a few questions worth asking.
1) Is there no way to chain together a series of holes on a 27-hole course to yield an 18-hole game that AVOIDS play on holes on the perimeter of the course abutting external public areas?
2) Was Trump advised of this obvious inherent danger by Secret Service staff?
3) Did he ignore a recommendation NOT to play outdoors at the course because of these risks?
4) Will the FBI find any "smoking gun" communications in the man's online communications, texts to acquaintances, etc. reflecting a clear threat that went unprocessed?
Remember, there seem to be very few things the Secret Service can dictate to a protectee. Whatever a protectee wants to do and however they want to do it, the Secret Service is obligated to protect as best they can.
Let's stick with the concept that this isn't anyone's fault. It's just an event that can happen when mental health isn't appropriately funded, the public has easy access to a wide variety of weapons and public figures routinely, predictably appear in outdoor settings which are impossible to protect from long-range, high powered guns. If that's the only takeaway allowed, then I know what I'd be doing if I was President or running for President. I'd be listening very closely to my Secret Service detail and following their recommendations to the letter.
I don't want ANY elected official or person running for elected office subjected to these threats. I also don't want any other public figure or private citizen exposed to the same threat of random violence at a distance brought on by a mentally ill person or completely rational criminal. I also don't want anyone in a position of power or influence to take actions that unnecessarily raise the risk of such events and magnify the fear already being focused on people of any ideological persuasion. This madness needs to stop.
WTH
No. of Recommendations: 5
"This madness needs to stop."
not a chance that will happen. trump is too self centered and egotistical to give a
2nd thought to the problems he is causing other people. It actually could be a play
for the grifter to force more SS to be assigned to him, and staying at his certain
to be overpriced accommodations.
I definitely don't want him becoming a martyr, but with his calls for violence, it seems
like sooner or later some of it is going to seriously find him. And one of these days, it might
be a non Republican, and MAGA will really lose their mind.
No. of Recommendations: 2
not a chance that will happen. trump is too self centered and egotistical to give a 2nd thought to the problems he is causing other people. It actually could be a play for the grifter to force more SS to be assigned to him, and staying at his certain to be overpriced accommodations. - UNJ
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All true, Now with that out of the way, does your side bear any responsibility for month after month calling him "Hitler", or warning the citizens, "This will be the End of Democracy", or rallying the base with "Trump must be stopped by any means possible".
No. of Recommendations: 17
"All true, Now with that out of the way, does your side bear any responsibility for month after month calling him "Hitler", or warning the citizens, "This will be the End of Democracy", or rallying the base with "Trump must be stopped by any means possible"."
No. Not at all. That is silly as well as dishonest.
For one, you are assigning words to "my side" that I or a majority of "my side" did not say. I personally don't know any Democrat or Independent who has said "Trump must be stopped by any means possible." I have said Trump needs to be stopped, but that in always in reference to making sure he is not voted into office by educating ignorant voters. Not by any means possible. Besides, I personally do not want see Trump killed. I want him alive to have to face the consequences of his actions after he loses the next election. So don't go and try and put any of this on me.
For two, some of those words are true no matter how much you want to ignore that fact. No matter how deep you want to bury your head in your bowels. Trump DID try to overturn the result of a free and fair election (multiple ways). Given a 2nd chance who knows what he will do. Trump has been and will be a threat to democracy. You can continue to ignore this, but that just makes you willfully ignorant. If someone telling the truth bothers you, that is on you.
For three, only one national politician has regularly inspired his followers to violence. When was the last time hundreds of Harris, Biden, Obama, or Clinton supporters went and attacked cops directly after attending one of their rallies? Never happened. Why is that it only happened with Trump?
For four, apply your own logic to yourself. Do you take any responsibility for the violence and threats that have happened to the Haitian community in Springfield, Ohio? Do you assign any of that responsibility to Trump and JD Vance? What is worse, those threats are the result of lies. Why don't you have a problems with someone spreading lies that end up threatening other people, but you have a problem with someone telling the truth?
For five, both Trump shooters (as well as the most recent Georgia school shooter) were clearly mentally ill. Now there is one political party that is greatly trying to make it so mentally ill people do not have easy access to weapons or war. The other political party is trying hard to make sure weapons of war are easily available to everyone. When are you going to take some responsibility for that?
No. of Recommendations: 2
The constant "mentally" ill population increase has zero to do with culture and digital lives run amok.
Have a commission and symposium over it
No. of Recommendations: 14
bighairymike:
Now with that out of the way, does your side bear any responsibility for month after month calling him "Hitler"...Interestingly, Mike Godwin, the man who became an authority on Adolf Hitler comparisons and whose name is attached to “Godwin’s Law” says "nope," and writes:
"Those of us who hope to preserve our democratic institutions need to underscore the resemblance before we enter the twilight of American democracy."And that’s why Godwin’s Law isn’t violated — or confirmed — by the Biden reelection campaign’s criticism of Trump’s increasingly unsubtle messaging. We had the luxury of deriving humor from Hitler and Nazi comparisons when doing so was almost always hyperbole. It’s not a luxury we can afford anymore.
Trump has the backing of political actors who are laboring to give the would-be 47th president the kind of command-and-control government he wants. Their proposals for maximizing and consolidating the powers of the federal government under a single individual at the top — provided that the individual is appropriately “conservative” — don’t sound like an American democracy. Sorry, sticklers, they don’t even sound like an American republic, either. What they sound and look like is a framework to enable fascism. And we have to thank Trump for being admirably forthcoming that he plans to be a dictator...And good grief, Trump has spend everyday since the debate ginning up fear and hatred in Springfield specifically and across America generally with his lies about "illegal" migrants [they're here legally]: "They're eating the dogs! They're eating the cats! They're eating, they're eating the pets!!" And that Haitians "destroyed" the place.
And that's after calling us, his political opponents, vermin.
You know, like Hitler.
If you don't want people comparing Trump to Hitler, then get him to stop quoting and sounding like Hitler.
But thanks for asking.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/12/20...https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3wp6q132p2o
No. of Recommendations: 11
BHM says "your side" repeatedly says (of a Trump Presidency), "This will be the End of Democracy"
Well, let's have the facts speak for themselves:
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Last week, Donald Trump promised a Christian audience that if they voted for him in 2024, they wouldn’t have to vote again in four years.
"Christians, get out and vote, just this time. You won’t have to do it anymore. … You got to get out and vote. In four years, you don’t have to vote again. We’ll have it fixed so good you’re not going to have to vote."
https://www.sydney.edu.au/news-opinion/news/2024/0...-------
In our Mar-a-Lago interview, Trump says he might fire U.S. Attorneys who refuse his orders to prosecute someone: “It would depend on the situation.” He’s told supporters he would seek retribution against his enemies in a second term.
https://time.com/6972021/donald-trump-2024-electio...-------
The former president, who has long expressed regard for authoritarian leaders and the power they wield, is now vowing vengeance and retribution as he outlines a second-term agenda marked by an unprecedented expansion of executive power, unparalleled interference in the justice system, and a massive purge of civil servants.
Indeed, hours before his remarks were aired, a longtime ally who is widely expected to serve in a top national security role if Trump returns to the White House vowed to target journalists in a second Trump term.
https://apnews.com/article/trump-hannity-dictator-...
No. of Recommendations: 2
Well, let's have the facts speak for themselves:
Yeah, this is totally fascist:
You got to get out and vote. In four years, you don’t have to vote again. We’ll have it fixed so good you’re not going to have to vote."
You people have reached so far on this you've pulled your arms right out of their sockets.
