Hi, Shrewd!        Login  
Shrewd'm.com 
A merry & shrewd investing community
Best Of BRK.A | Best Of | Favourites & Replies | All Boards | Post of the Week!
Search BRK.A
Shrewd'm.com Merry shrewd investors
Best Of BRK.A | Best Of | Favourites & Replies | All Boards | Post of the Week!
Search BRK.A


Stocks A to Z / Stocks B / Berkshire Hathaway (BRK.A)
Unthreaded | Threaded | Whole Thread (12) |
Post New
Author: Wotdabny   😊 😞
Number: of 15059 
Subject: Boomer Candy
Date: 06/28/2024 3:03 PM
Post Reply | Report Post | Recommend It!
No. of Recommendations: 8
Every so often there's a useful discussion here about investing safely for the retired set -- an object of concern for so many of us, and eventually, all of us.

A few days ago there was an article in the WSJ: These Hot New Funds Are ‘Boomer Candy’ for Retirees. Excerpts:

[Funds that use derivatives to produce extra dividend income or protect against losses,]which were almost nonexistent four years ago, [provide the] chance to chase stock returns while also protecting against a potential market slide. The funds have taken in . . . almost $120 billion.

The most popular of the strategies, dubbed “equity premium income” by fund managers, invests in a portfolio of large-cap stocks while also selling options contracts on those shares. The funds generate higher dividend income than is typical in a stock fund—sometimes 8% to 10%—but they also cap investor gains and carry chunky fees.

Buffer funds, another popular strategy that uses derivatives, claim to guard against investor losses, up to a point, while limiting potential gains as well. A similar class of funds even advertises 100% downside protection, when certain conditions are met.


There's more to this, of course, and how well this downside protection would actually work is only one issue. The article is here:
https://www.wsj.com/finance/investing/retirees-boo...

Mentioned in the article:
https://www.calamos.com/funds/etf/calamos-sp-500-s...
Caps gains at 9.8%, otherwise follows S&P 500 minus the fee, and over one-year holds promises 100% downside protection.

https://am.jpmorgan.com/us/en/asset-management/adv...
The fund’s “covered call” strategy involves selling options tied to the large-cap stocks it invests in, which limits upside but generates premiums that are paid out to investors in the form of high dividends—roughly 8% over the past 12 months. The annual fee is 0.35%.

BlackRock is evidently launching such funds presently. A cursory look found this one:
https://www.blackrock.com/us/individual/products/3...
iShares Large Cap Deep Buffer ETF seeks to track the share price return of the iShares Core S&P 500 ETF (the “Underlying ETF”) up to an approximate upside limit, while seeking to provide downside protection against approximately 5-20% of Underlying ETF losses over each calendar quarter.

I feel skeptical, but on the other hand, I can imagine some folks putting at least a corner of their portfolio into such instruments, and I thought some of the folks here might be interested.

Warmly,
Wot
Print the post


Author: mungofitch 🐝🐝🐝🐝 SILVER
SHREWD
  😊 😞

Number: of 15059 
Subject: Re: Boomer Candy
Date: 06/28/2024 3:26 PM
Post Reply | Report Post | Recommend It!
No. of Recommendations: 13
This broad category of structured product has long been extremely common in Europe. Common is not the same as popular or in demand--it's a product that is sold, not one that is bought: the fees are horrendous, and any enterprising individual could accomplish the same thing far more cheaply with a couple of option contracts (assuming they are allowed to trade them in that country). It's a very scummy business in general, but the banks found a niche that would let them keep their fee income up.

Jim
Print the post


Author: tedthedog 🐝  😊 😞
Number: of 15059 
Subject: Re: Boomer Candy
Date: 06/28/2024 4:48 PM
Post Reply | Report Post | Recommend It!
No. of Recommendations: 1
I'm in that retired set, and have used options myself, so I looked at a couple of 'buffer' ETFs from First Trust. They are like the 'structured products' to which Jim refered, but are offered in an ETF. See link below for your reading enjoyment
https://www.ftportfolios.com/retail/etf/targetoutc...

FWIW, my take away is that they're "broken collar" funds:
A collar is when you're long the market, buy a protective put (a conservative move with guaranteed downside protection, but expensive), and partially or even completely offset the cost of that protective put by selling an OTM call. Selling the call caps your upside, but if the level of upside participation and the level of downside protection is to your liking, then a collar can be a conservative way to participate in a particular market. As Jim mentioned, it's easy to do yourself if a bit handy with options.

But then they sell another option, a farther OTM put (perhaps to goose returns from this extra received premium to make the fund look more attractive).

This breaks the guaranteed downside protection that the original collar provides and turns it into a 'buffer'.
You're only protected in the 'buffer' region between the two put strikes: you participate in a downturn down to the first put strike, are protected down to the second put strike, but then have zero protection below that.

If you can find buffer levels that make you happy, and acceptable fund fees (assuming you don't do options yourself), then the first hurdle is passed.

A second hurdle is buried in the fine print of the prospectus. The funds I looked at use FLEX options. These are custom options negotiated with, and issued by, CBOE. I can't help but think that the market for such custom options is very thin compared to ordinary options. In fact they warn of the possibility of ill-iquidity in the prospectus, i.e. you (well, they) might not be able to use the custom FLEX options when you need them because the market is too thin.

So I came away wondering
"why is a buffer a good thing?"
and
"even if it is, can the fund make it work in a stressed market where FLEX options might be very ill-liquid?"
Print the post


Author: tedthedog 🐝  😊 😞
Number: of 15059 
Subject: Re: Boomer Candy
Date: 06/28/2024 5:09 PM
Post Reply | Report Post | Recommend It!
No. of Recommendations: 4
Oh, and to add to the interest: one of the earlier issuers of such 'buffer funds' is FirstTrust/Vest.
VEST is actually a marketing arm of CBOE to commercialize some of the various "mechanical option strategies" for which CBOE publishes backtests (they call these backtests 'indices")
https://www.cboe.com/us/indices/indicesproducts/

Ever want to know how a well-specified "butterfly" options strategy did back to 1993 (or whenever it was)?
A published backtest, by a trusted source, of a mechanical option strategy is in fact sort of nice, it scratches the itch.

But the backstory is that CBOE makes money via VEST by licensing (I assume it's licensing, I don't know that) a CBOE strategy to another firm like FirstTrust, who then bundles it into an ETF and sells it to you (with presumably some percentage back to CBOE, because altruism tends to get arb-ed out in finance). All the funds that I've looked at use FLEX options. FLEX options are bespoke options that are issued by CBOE after a firm like FirstTrust negotiates with them.

I'm not suggesting that these funds are bad things, but when things get fairly complicated it's good to get extremely careful.
Print the post


Author: WEBspired   😊 😞
Number: of 15059 
Subject: Re: Boomer Candy
Date: 06/28/2024 5:27 PM
Post Reply | Report Post | Recommend It!
No. of Recommendations: 4
“It's a very scummy business in general, but the banks found a niche that would let them keep their fee income up.”

Bingo. Yes, these offerings and comments remind me of a wise Warren 2004 AGM quote:

“Wall Street will sell what it can sell, just remember that…In fact, If they are good at marketing, they don’t have to be good at anything else.”

Print the post


Author: FlyingCircus   😊 😞
Number: of 15059 
Subject: Re: Boomer Candy
Date: 06/28/2024 11:49 PM
Post Reply | Report Post | Recommend It!
No. of Recommendations: 0
"Structured products" is the new hottest thing among the investment houses big and small, and popular podcasters (e.g. Ritholz / Brown / Batnick with "The Compound") are giving them voice, while asking critical / skeptical questions.

It's always the fees... and the "we keep the best vig for ourselves"... with these "products".
Print the post


Author: tedthedog 🐝  😊 😞
Number: of 15059 
Subject: Re: Boomer Candy
Date: 06/29/2024 9:51 AM
Post Reply | Report Post | Recommend It!
No. of Recommendations: 0
An option strategy packaged as an ETF isn't necessarily a bad thing, not everyone trades options themselves.
The fees are published, and a fee for doing something that you can't do yourself isn't unreasonable (depending on the size of the fee).
But if you can't do it yourself, then how do you understand what they are doing and make an informed investment? Conceivably the right strategy implemented within an ETF at a reasonable fee could be something an old options hand might want to use when they decide to get less active. But that's not the market these funds are targeting.

On a brighter note, the idea of an ETF 'wrapper' for an options strategy has some appeal apart from less work for you. You're not rolling options forward at expiration yourself (taxable), they are doing it within the ETF so you're seeing "unrealized" (untaxed) gains of the ETF (...I think).

from personally not finding a buffer strategy appealing, my concern is that (from the funds I've looked at) that the option strategies are implemented in the ETF using FLEX options.
Print the post


Author: mungofitch 🐝🐝🐝🐝 SILVER
SHREWD
  😊 😞

Number: of 15059 
Subject: Re: Boomer Candy
Date: 06/29/2024 9:53 AM
Post Reply | Report Post | Recommend It!
No. of Recommendations: 7
Bingo. Yes, these offerings and comments remind me of a wise Warren 2004 AGM quote:
“Wall Street will sell what it can sell, just remember that…In fact, If they are good at marketing, they don’t have to be good at anything else.”


An interesting coda to that thought:
The index put options that Mr Buffett sold some years back were almost certainly bought by someone building a structured product like this. For many a deal, if being on one side is dumb or useless, being on the other side is smart or useful.

Jim
Print the post


Author: mungofitch 🐝🐝🐝🐝 SILVER
SHREWD
  😊 😞

Number: of 15059 
Subject: Re: Boomer Candy
Date: 06/29/2024 3:54 PM
Post Reply | Report Post | Recommend It!
No. of Recommendations: 8
It's always the fees... and the "we keep the best vig for ourselves"... with these "products".

These all seem to be trying to get something for nothing. You do better in some circumstances, but worse in others, so they don't accomplish the magic.

But I can't help but wonder if there is a relatively sensible way to do a "structured" portfolio. Imagine an asset for which you have some reasonable estimate of actual value. You maintain 50% of your portfolio in that asset, 50% in cash. You continually write put options for a notional value of 50% of the portfolio value at fair value minus 15-25%, and you write call options for a notional value of 50% of the value of the portfolio at 15-25% above the estimated fair value. Once in a while some options will get exercised, but you have the stock to let the puts happen, and the cash to let the calls happen. Periodically (but not too rapidly), you refresh and rebalance to the target positions and weights by buying or selling stock, and writing more options.

This wouldn't be a very high return, since you're only half in equities at any given time, plus a little interest and a little option premium income. But at least it would be relatively sane, and relatively steady. It's buy and hold with a strangle...a strangle hold?

Jim
Print the post


Author: tedthedog 🐝  😊 😞
Number: of 15059 
Subject: Re: Boomer Candy
Date: 06/30/2024 7:39 AM
Post Reply | Report Post | Recommend It!
No. of Recommendations: 5
Because this is the BRK board, let's assume that Jim's underlying for a 'strangle hold' is traditionally undervalued. To simplify the numbers, let's take an example where we scale the current fair value to 100 and the current market price to 90 i.e. undervalued. A 15% off fair value call would be at strike=115 and a 15% off fair value put would be at strike 85.
Given that the market price in this example is at 90, the calls will be farther OTM (27.7% OTM) than the puts (5.5% OTM), so the premia income would be dominated by the put sales (Jim might adjust the strikes, but go with this for the moment):

APPROACH 1:
Given domination by put sales, simplify the strategy to just selling puts and so now the approximated strategy is "half in BRK stock, half in cash while writing BRK puts".

The half that's in BRK stock has a known history.

The half that's in cash/treasuries while writing BRK puts doesn't have a known history.
But writing covered calls on Berkshire does, and at expiration the payoff diagrams of cash-secured puts and covered calls are the same (A detail about this "equivalence" leads to Approach 2 below).
Check Capital Management has a Berkshire covered calls program:
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/641cca1972c...
The Check strategy details aren't disclosed, but given that they're a value oriented firm it wouldn't be surprising that they're using their own estimate of BRK fair value to decide strikes for their covered call program.

CAGR of Check Capital's BRK covered call program since 2011 initiation, net of fees, is 8.3%
BRK's CAGR since 2011 is 13%
Take half of each and add: 8.3/2 + 13/2 = 10.65%
Being only half long means the equity ride would be much gentler than being fully invested in BRK. Rebalance as needed, as Jim noted.

CONCLUSION 1:
FWIW, an estimate of the CAGR of something like Jim's strategy, on BRK since 2011, would be somewhere over 10.5% or so, with a smooth ride.
So, a "short strangle hold" could be a reasonable approach.

APPROACH 2:
Although the pay-off diagrams of covered calls and cash secured puts are the same at expiration, Jim noted in a post some time ago that if you're writing covered calls to keep premium then you're a bit bearish, and if writing cash-secured puts to keep premium then you're a bit bullish.
So why not have 50% of portfolio in BRK and 50% in cash as in Approach 1, but write cash secured puts when price is below fair value, and write covered calls when above, and rebalancing as needed. There'd be some difference in CAGR between the covered call side and the cash secured put side, but at first approximation you're half in BRK and the other half doing something like Check (although dynamically switching from writing calls to writing puts depending on fair value)

CONCLUSION 2:
At first approximation, would get something like Check's 8.3% CAGR for half your port, and are long BRK for the other half. So again, 8.3/2 + 13/2 = 10.65% CAGR with a smoother ride. In practice, Approach 2 might turn out better than Approach 1 because you're dynamically shifting from writing calls to writing puts depending on fair value.

This is no longer a short strangle because you're not simultaneously writing puts and calls, but are dynamically shifting between the two option sales depending on price relative to fair value.
It's a "Half long, half right write" strategy.

Usual caveats apply, i.e. I'm probably wrong (didn't sleep well), this isn't necessarily a typical time period, etc. etc.

Print the post


Author: Engr27   😊 😞
Number: of 15059 
Subject: Re: Boomer Candy
Date: 06/30/2024 9:33 AM
Post Reply | Report Post | Recommend It!
No. of Recommendations: 0
Although the pay-off diagrams of covered calls and cash secured puts are the same at expiration

I think the detail that is often missed is that an OTM put is equivalent to an ITM covered call.

If the OTM put expires worthless, then you have collected the premium and do not own the stock.

At the same stock price the covered call will be ITM. You will have collected the premium and you no longer own the stock (it was called away).
Print the post


Author: chk999   😊 😞
Number: of 15059 
Subject: Re: Boomer Candy
Date: 06/30/2024 5:12 PM
Post Reply | Report Post | Recommend It!
No. of Recommendations: 2
For those with a long memory, the concept of "portfolio insurance" seemed like a great one. Until things went south and it blew up like an exploding cigar. I sorta suspect these products will be similar.
Print the post


Post New
Unthreaded | Threaded | Whole Thread (12) |


Announcements
Berkshire Hathaway FAQ
Contact Shrewd'm
Contact the developer of these message boards.

Best Of BRK.A | Best Of | Favourites & Replies | All Boards | Followed Shrewds