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As I've said 2 years - it's their best issue.

Just had a door knock so I answer it. Woman with clipboard asks for my Wife I politely say "she's not here" - cause she isn't.

Lady actually sticks her head sort of between door and inside my house "where is she"?

Me: She's out enjoying life with my daughter. They're buying shit they don't need and hopefully having a good lunch"

Her: "Oh"

LMAO then I saw Wifey's car starting to come up the road - house is on a hill. Lady goes down the driveway....I guess I forgot to holler "hey, that's her, she's right there" and the birdbrain walks right past the car when you see it pulling into the drive way lol.


But, point remains: The Dems are wisely targeting people with their get out the vote. This reminds me of Bush and Karl Rove in 2004...only they didn't have this kind of technology like we do now.

I assume lady will be back, she seemed very passionate - borderline angry.

She'll be happy - Wifey will tell her that she's voting Harris and that young DD wants to go with her just to see how it all works.

I'll be honest, I'm thinking of fun stuff but I don't want to hurt someone - especially when I could be liable.

Some grape jelly at the door step or walkway perhaps? But that is visible. And I dunno when she'll come back.

The GOP is going to have to learn to counterprogram the dems' mobilization of AWFLs on abortion.

There are a couple of ways to do that...

The GOP is going to have to learn to counterprogram the dems' mobilization of AWFLs on abortion.

Hmm, I bet you don’t know any AWFLs.

But, I think it’s a great idea for you and the Republican Party to mansplain to these AWFLs why white men should be making healthcare decisions for them.

We sure as heck don’t want those delicate little ladies to get any silly ideas like that they know what’s best for themselves.

After all, it’s up to us menfolk to take protect them dainty ones, even if they don’t want it.

Good luck with that.

Hmm, I bet you don’t know a

I bet you don't know what it stands for.

But, I think it’s a great idea for you and the Republican Party to mansplain to these AWFLs why white men should be making healthcare decisions for them.

That's what you would do, so naturally you project your bad ideas onto everybody else. But you don't know much about human behavior, psychology, or the art of influencing others, so you'd take the most ham-fisted approach possible and run with it.

Me? That's not how I would play it. There are other ways. For starters, reframing the conversation away from what it is today.

That's what you would do, so naturally you project your bad ideas onto everybody else.

You might look at it as letting women have some say so about their bodies. I recognize they have a right to have more control over their bodies than a bunch of old men making money off the subject. By that I mean that analysis of how this came about is that the subject put extra money in the coffers. The religious grift.

I bet you don't know what it stands for.

I didn’t until I Googled it. I love learning new information which is why I’m such a voracious reader. I try (not always successfully) to make decisions based on facts, not emotions.

That's what you would do, so naturally you project your bad ideas onto everybody else. But you don't know much about human behavior, psychology, or the art of influencing others, so you'd take the most ham-fisted approach possible and run with it.

Me? That's not how I would play it. There are other ways. For starters, reframing the conversation away from what it is today.

Certainly, people can be influenced. Otherwise, we wouldn’t have so many damn commercials and ads. But that doesn’t mean that people can be influenced about everything.

For one extreme example, most people couldn’t be influenced murder someone in cold blood.

But the Republican Party needs the “religious” right, so they’ve been chasing abortion bans to reinforce their credibility with folks who believe they are “religious,” despite the fact that they happily vote for an adjudicated rapist and 34 count felon who breaks at least 1 of the 10 Commandments on a daily basis.

Unfortunately for the Republicans, they’re the dog that finally caught the car. Or rather, they caught the Mack truck. And not only don’t they know what to do with it, their denials that they caught the Mack truck are comical and insulting. The Republicans own the abortion ban, hook, line, and sinker (or stinker).

There is no ‘let’s shift the conversation here’. The road is being littered with the bodies of dead pregnant women.

This is what happens when you take a religious belief and try to force it on everyone else.

Interestingly, in the Jewish religion, the belief in healthcare issues is that the mother’s life always takes precedent over the potential life of a fetus. Can’t wait to see how the SCOTUS handles that religious belief.

In any case, women aren’t stupid, so you should stop treating them that way. They know what is in their best interest. No “reframing” will change that.

As an aside, did you see the latest poll from Iowa? Could be a fluke or it could be the canary in the coal mine regarding abortion bans.

I’m just a dumb old white guy, but my life experience has taught me not to get between an AWFL and something they care about. Good luck with your reframing.

I love learning new information which is why I’m such a voracious reader.
*****

Of "NEWSPAPERS!"?

Of "NEWSPAPERS!"?

Newspapers, books (the book club I’m in is starting its 19th year IIRC), magazines, online sites, and I listen to a few trusted broadcasts, as well.

I also spend time on gardening, playing chess, playing acoustic guitar (fingerpicking style, of course), building wooden gear pendulum clocks, torturing my grandchildren (which they give back to me in spades), walking briskly daily, making my wife laugh (usually during sex 😮) and watching my beloved Dodgers win World Series games! Go team Blue all the way!!!

God bless retirement.

I think I had written about this before but just like Sheeple has been Sheeple Smug on a myriad of issues and thus, deprived Democrats of better governing power, abortion is becoming that - HAS become that on the Right where their version of Sheeple doesn't want to give an inch.

A girl I knew in 7th grade - anyhow got back in touch perhaps - 15 years ago. Met few times, she's Facebook buddies with Wifey, and I just visited her in Texas a year ago.

MBA, does well in career. Comes from churchgoing Lutheran nuclear family. She is happily married 15 years, has 2 lovely twins. Lived in California MOST of her adult life and I remember when I visited with her in 2010-ish she talked about Obama being a Kenyan Socialist Muslim.

Anyhow, when I met her in Texas last year within 20 minutes I said "Texas has made you a bit more center, more liberal hasn't it" and she was shocked. "OH MY GOD you're just like you were in school. HOW did you know"? I said - you have kids and you're fed up with the gun obsession around, AND ....the Roe V Wade thing drove you to the edge. She said I was right - that being around the guns and the anti abortion stuff made her realize she's not so SConservative anymore.

She has been VEHEMENTLY for Harris - mainly because she's obsessively against Trump mainly on abortion - but then on AR15's. Perfectly good 2nd generation Conservative voter LOST to the Left - thanks to the Sheeple Taliban on my side.

Now get this. Another chick, Brooke - charming little blonde girl who was our classmate. Same thing - churchgoing Catholic, nuclear family as a kid....and even today wonderful husband, kids. that whole miserable anti-modern nuclear family doing just great. All these people are as white as white can be. And we were shocked - Brooke is going Kamala too - 100% on Abortion and Roe v Wade.


Gonna be so interesting who prevails this week. I STILL say, like I've said all year: IF Trump wins, the big story will be his inroads with blacks and hispanics. IF Harris wins, it'll be the turnout of women voters AND crossover votes from Republican women.


Republicans: A decade ago I said - we are losing votes on Gay Marriage, even when it's destined to be a normal thing in America. I got replies of "my principles" "my convictions!" "courage of my convictions!". I used to say same on trade - and got the same replies. Well, here we are - after losing a few elections REpubs are not so anti gay marriage now. EVEN if we win this week, our win will be smaller than it could've been. So I ask - just like I did on trade and gays: Do we *really* want to lose governing power - because we want to shout "freedom" while we trace women's periods, their travels, and tell them to have a baby that Willie Horton raped her for?

C'mon, think. Don't be like Smug Liberal Sheeple.

We dont have to be Liberals who want a fetus plucked just for sport. Rape, incest, life of mother. Any candidate not supporting that should get no party funding. Boom. In the next chapter, watch Liberals shit egg rolls if you ever do that.

Cool. I read online only due to ease but I truly hate technology for so many reasons.

I love reading WSJ - the real paper version and also I still read the Economist not cover to cover - but 3-4 stories per week also from the *real* paper magazine.

I walk - only 1 week a month when I have my fitness phase sadly.

I eat- of course.

Online poker, casino live poker, and then all the kid stuff. A few hockey games on TV and of course- all my 80's movies, sitcoms, etc.... that is a daily thing too.

I always disliked newspapers. Fully open, they are unwieldy. Your hands start to turn gray by the time you finish (due to newspaper ink). I could rattle-off some other complaints, but it's much easier to just read on a convenient-sized screen (I do prefer computer to phone...phone screen is small, but I can carry my "newspaper" with me and read at my convenience).

As for abortion, I don't like saying "never", but I doubt the Reps will be able to turn people on this issue. Almost certainly not within my lifetime. There is broad, majority, support for bodily autonomy (though some debate about where to draw "the line"). If Reps try to run on restrictive abortion rules, they'll lose.

As for abortion, I don't like saying "never", but I doubt the Reps will be able to turn people on this issue. Almost certainly not within my lifetime. There is broad, majority, support for bodily autonomy (though some debate about where to draw "the line"). If Reps try to run on restrictive abortion rules, they'll lose.

There's no way to know for sure, but I think that socially conservative anti-abortion advocates genuinely didn't understand the scope of the medical health issues involved with pregnancy and abortion.

I've had discussions with conservatives about abortion IRL from time to time. They've generally been very suspicious of any "health of the mother" exceptions in abortion regulation. In nearly every conversation I've had on the topic, whoever I was talking to regarded that as pretextual. They were convinced that "health" really was just an effort by abortion rights folks to let any abortion happen, with the argument that any pregnancy is more dangerous to the woman than not being pregnant.

I don't think there was as much deep awareness of just how abortion regulation would mesh with how complicated and genuinely biologically messy pregnancy is.

Roe protected them from the difficulties of drafting regulations that could handle all the myriad scenarios. Now they've got their fingers caught in the blender. If restrictions are too tight, you get horror stories of women whose pregnancies have gone terribly wrong but can't get medical procedures necessary to save their fertility or force them into life-threatening situations. But if they're too loose, the base gets outraged when their thought leaders rail against the loose regulations.

There's no way to know for sure, but I think that socially conservative anti-abortion advocates genuinely didn't understand the scope of the medical health issues involved with pregnancy and abortion.

I think that's true. My example of a woman seeking late-term abortion I think illustrates that. (i.e. if she carried a fetus for 7 months, and then sought abortion, she clearly wanted it...but something changed, probably something very bad.)

I will say that I can at least respect the differing viewpoint if it's consistent. IOW, no exception for rape or incest or health of the mother. To be clear, I vehemently disagree with that. But it is logically consistent. They maintain it is a human life. If that is the position, then any abortion is murder. Rape? Not the fetal-human's fault. Incest? Not the fetal-human's fault. Can't punish it for that (which killing it would be, if we consider it a human life with full human rights). When you start making exceptions, you are saying that events beyond the "baby's" control determine its rights. Which is against the initial premise (i.e. it's a human life with all the associated rights).

I think them granting the exceptions is just a way to impose their religious beliefs on everyone else, and later they'll try to remove the exceptions. Kari Lake has said "no exceptions", so she's going for it. Her view is logically consistent, but it's hurting her because most people don't agree with drawing "the line" at "no abortions ever".

Also, if it's a human life, and the mother doesn't want the pregnancy, then I still think a good lawyer could make the argument that it violates the 13th Amendment. In fact, the argument for that would be stronger than the argument in Roe (which you laid out several years ago on TMF).

" Now they've got their fingers caught in the blender. If restrictions are too tight, you get horror stories of women whose pregnancies have gone terribly wrong but can't get medical procedures necessary to save their fertility or force them into life-threatening situations. But if they're too loose, the base gets outraged when their thought leaders rail against the loose regulations."

--------------------------

The conservatives have fully earned that anchor around their neck.

The utmost arrogance and conceit they have, they are not doctors, but they feel
they have the right to dictate and force their ignorant view on everybody else.

And as far as I'm concerned, abortion-ban is just step 1 in the conservative/evangelical
playbook. They will try to force all of their religious views down our collective throats.

I'm sure the USA cannot wait to see RFK placed in charge of Public Health. I've listened
and watched him talk, there has never been a better display of virility and health.
Yeah, just can't wait #sarcasm

Roe protected them from the difficulties of drafting regulations that could handle all the myriad scenarios. Now they've got their fingers caught in the blender. If restrictions are too tight, you get horror stories of women whose pregnancies have gone terribly wrong but can't get medical procedures necessary to save their fertility or force them into life-threatening situations. But if they're too loose, the base gets outraged when their thought leaders rail against the loose regulations.

Or kill women, as is starting to happen. And it causes even worse health outcomes (and life expectancy) in the deep red states that have abortion bans as doctors start to leave the state.

This is exactly why passing laws based on religious dogma will always be repressive and unpopular.

You can’t argue with what God told you, or more precisely, what some religious fanatic believes God told them.

If Trump loses this election, “I was able to kill Roe v Wade” was the final nail in his coffin.

The dems have framed abortion somewhat narrowly as, "Vote for democrats or women die because the GOP took their rights away". Oh, they'll argue that their position is more nuanced than that - it really isn't, just read this thread where it's stated explicitly - but what it lacks in sophistication (vote for us or die) it makes up for it in effectiveness.

This framing is intentional. And great, when you study it from an objective political view. Allows the democrats to paint the Republicans as Evil Movie Bad Guys (from that film based on the Margaret Somethingorother book whose name I can't remember and don't want to break my train of thought to Google) while simultaneously holding them up as Defenders of Women.

It also allows the democrats to argumentatively eliminate all the space and nuance and force the GOP to argue on legal technicalities. Dobbs overturned a really janky Supreme Court ruling from the 1970s and that's all it did...but try telling that to somebody really emotionally invested in the issue any of that - they won't listen. The other thing the democrats have done is play offense 100% of the time on the abortion issue - there's not a single ad where it comes up and the GOP, being the stupid/weak party, doesn't know how to counter-program it.

But there are ways. The first thing to know is that the majority opinion on abortion breaks down like this. The first couple of points favor the pro-choice side:

-RU-486 should be legal in all cases and readily available
-Abortion should be legal (see the first point) in the first few weeks of pregnancy

However:
-Late term (post 20 weeks or so) abortions are viewed very unfavorably
-Partial birth or Born Alive situations are strongly opposed

The democrats' positioning wallpapers over all of that.

It also allows the democrats to argumentatively eliminate all the space and nuance and force the GOP to argue on legal technicalities. Dobbs overturned a really janky Supreme Court ruling from the 1970s and that's all it did...but try telling that to somebody really emotionally invested in the issue any of that - they won't listen. The other thing the democrats have done is play offense 100% of the time on the abortion issue - there's not a single ad where it comes up and the GOP, being the stupid/weak party, doesn't know how to counter-program it.

The GOP certainly doesn’t know how to counter-program this issue because there is no counter-program for this issue!

Dobbs did more than overturn a janky SC ruling. It allowed states to make laws that outlawed abortion even in cases of rape, incest, and the safety of a woman’s life!! And that’s exactly what many states have done. You better believe it’s emotional. Women’s lives are on the line. The Texas AG is suing to get access to women’s medical records. I bet if he was suing to get access to your medical records, you’d be plenty emotional, too.

-Abortion should be legal (see the first point) in the first few weeks of pregnancy

The vast majority of women have no idea they’re pregnant in the first few weeks of pregnancy. In fact, a pregnancy test doesn’t even work for at least 3 weeks into a pregnancy.

The janky Roe vs Wade ruling wasn’t perfect, but it got it mostly right according to a vast majority of Americans. Abortion was legal until a fetus was viable (usually 24 to 28 weeks). Final trimester abortions were only allowed to protect a mother’s life. Only the right-wing religious groups (that are ok with supporting an adjudicated rapist who breaks at least 1 of the 10 Commandments EVERY day) wanted their religious beliefs to be enforced for everyone. And the GOP needed their votes, so they caved.

You might say the GOP got hoist by their own petard (not to mention their greed for power and their ignorance about what women wanted).

I could go on, but I trust you get my drift.

If Trump loses this election, “I was able to kill Roe v Wade” was the final nail in his coffin.

I'm not sanguine about the outcome, but let's hope this election hammers that final nail firmly into his political coffin.

I don't think there was as much deep awareness of just how abortion regulation would mesh with how complicated and genuinely biologically messy pregnancy is.

I don't think there is still. We had a huge reduction in maternal deaths with antibiotics - there's a chart floating around for the reduction in maternal deaths in the UK from Our World in Data that is striking. It made me stop and wonder about our old maternal practices. Now they will go back up in the USA.

Evidently, in TX they already have gone up. I heard just today that maternal mortality is up 53% since TX enacted their abortion ban. Doctors are afraid to do anything to fetus, even if it's killing the mother, because they could end up in jail.

AZ has a proposed amendment to our constitution that will prevent that. Hopefully it passes. We're a red state, but I don't think anti-choice people are the majority here.

Z has a proposed amendment to our constitution that will prevent that. Hopefully it passes. We're a red state, but I don't think anti-choice people are the majority here.
***

I HOPE SO.

Ohio and I think Idaho or Kansas passed similar protections.

This is the biggest thing on my side that is disgusting to me. God damn Mullahs we've become in some cases.

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