Post New

On day 1 of his regime Biden handed over millions of dollars to Hamas despite warnings that they'd use it for terrorism.

And now they have. Congrats, libs. We went from the Abraham Accords to civilians being kidnapped and butchered in the streets:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12604497/...

Videos on social media appeared to show armed troops from the Al-Qassam Brigades, Hamas' militant arm, moving through built-up areas firing weapons as Israeli residents were evacuated from their homes following air strikes.

In a statement posted on Telegram, Hamas called on 'the resistance fighters in the West Bank' as well as 'our Arab and Islamic nations' to join the battle.

In remarks reported by CNN, militant commander Deif said: 'If you have a gun, get it out. This is the time to use it ' get out with trucks, cars, axes. Today the best and most honorable history starts.'

The Biden regime issued the usual milqtoast nonsense response to this

https://twitter.com/omriceren/status/1710599560001...

'but it's since been deleted.
All the money that Biden sent the Palestinians no doubt paid for this. What money, you ask?


https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statement...

President Biden will also announce new contributions totaling $316 million to support the Palestinian people. This is on top of the more than half a billion dollars the United States has provided to the Palestinian people since the Biden Administration restored much needed funding to the Palestinians.

The White House knew that any aid they provided would go to terrorism but they went ahead anyway:

https://www.jns.org/us-news/hamas/23/8/17/311343/

The Biden administration pressed forward with plans to allocate hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars to the Palestinians despite concerns within the administration that those funds could end up supporting the Iran-backed terror group Hamas.

According to internal documents obtained by the Washington Free Beacon, U.S. State Department officials expressed those concerns privately, asking the Treasury Department to exempt them from laws barring the United States from sending funds into areas run by Palestinian terror groups.

Let's go, Brandon! Heckuva job.

Abbas is now out in support of the attacks:

https://twitter.com/JimFergusonUK/status/171061734...

President of Palestine, Mahmoud Abbas: "We have the right to defend ourselves against Israel and settler terrorism"

'and that means he's now a high profile target.

"President of Palestine, Mahmoud Abbas: "We have the right to defend ourselves against Israel and settler terrorism"

Surely, he is correct in that statement.

Israel is a right-wing expansionist state. They do not deserve our support.
I'm not sure Palestine does either, but they should be allowed to peacefully exist as a normal state.
'Settlers' are also a form of state terrorism without a way for Palestinians to object legally.
Of course they will seek opportunity to strike back by other means.

I Will let AOC and the Squad be my mouthpiece here.

If they say what they believe - I'm in full support.

If - they stay quiet and neutral - ditto, full support.

Same goes for *many* win the halls of global diplomacy.

On day 1 of his regime Biden handed over millions of dollars to Hamas despite warnings that they'd use it for terrorism.
*****

One Man's Terrorist is another man's Freedom Fighter.

Who the hell does Israel and America think they are, labeling Hamas as terrorists?

Maybe the other side is the terrorist.

Take a poll of all humans to have walked the earth in human history and let's see what they think.


Better yet, have the leader of America, Israel, Iran, and Hamas go for a public stroll in Times Square or London with zero security apparatus.

Let's see how that works out.

Surely, he is correct in that statement.

The Palestinians attacked a rave festival that was there to protest for peace along the Gaza wall. Ironically, most likely many of the women they kidnapped, abused and then murdered there were at the rave to show support.

Nothing justifies that.

The Gazans voted for this and seem to want it. FAFO, as they say.

dOPE:"The Palestinians attacked a rave festival that was there to protest for peace along the Gaza wall. Ironically, most likely many of the women .... were at the rave to show support."

Dope, you bombast without a pause, the Supernova Sukkot festival was a Sukkot festival. Not every Jew does the traditional sukkot thing at home and/or at temple.

Go ahead, lecture me on the meaning of Sukkot, rabbi.

Israel is a right-wing expansionist state.

Ask a Mexican; the USA is also an expansionist nation.

Palestine ... should be allowed to peacefully exist as a normal state.

But they don't. They have had groups like Hamas and Hezballah backed by nations like Iran regularly attacking Israel ever since Israel was established.

Another Islamic relationship to be remembered:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relations_between_Na...

Global population growth means more people everywhere. In the middle east, that means more Jews and more Muslims. Religions beating one another's heads to pulp over the right of the Jews to have a nation and defend their very existence. Ain't religion grand?

That being the case, on a planet that has shrunk to the speed of a hypersonic nuclear missile, whattya gonna do?

If you aren't a Muslim you might chafe under the yolk of a Mullah or Islamic Militia over there, much as we are chafing against the right-wing white Christian nationalists.

Sucks having to take sides, but when the missiles start raining down, whattya gonna do?

I'm not sure Palestine does either, but they should be allowed to peacefully exist as a normal state.

Whatever the "shoulds," there is now no way that Israel will ever allow Palestine to be a normal state so long as Hamas exists as a politically viable entity within it. Normal states have a security apparatus and a military. There is no scenario in which Israel will allow a military that might be controlled by Hamas in either the West Bank or Gaza.

It is possible that Hamas was the proverbial dog that caught the car, here. This is Israel's 9/11 and Iran Hostage Crisis, rolled up into one big traumatic ball. There will be domestic support for Israel to go in and kill everyone even remotely connected to Hamas, root and branch, and not stop attacking until every one of them is dead or fled. Whether they can do that, they will certainly try. If they succeed, that might end up being one good thing to come out of this for the Palestinians - Hamas was always a canker on their lives - but it will be one of the only good things to come from what promises to be a long period of war and death.

If ever a two-state solution was possible, after this there will never be a two-state solution so long as Hamas exists.

"Ask a Mexican; the USA is also an expansionist nation."

To our shame. It certainly doesn't make it right.
But we have not encroached on Mexican territory for quite a long time.


"But they don't. They have had groups like Hamas and Hezballah backed by nations like Iran regularly attacking Israel ever since Israel was established."
What do you think the Palestinians should do to reclaim the occupied territory? Or to resist the 'settler' movement/invasion?
They are literally prisoners in their own territory without control of their own territorial waters or airspace.
Should they just accept it and move away? Is that what you would do?


"Religions beating one another's heads to pulp over the right of the Jews to have a nation and defend their very existence."
Surely the Palestinians have a right to existence and territory too?
I'm not convinced this is a religious fight anyway.

The global population issue is a separate one whose only solution involves a change to human instincts.

This is Israel's 9/11 and Iran Hostage Crisis, rolled up into one big traumatic ball. There will be domestic support for Israel to go in and kill everyone even remotely connected to Hamas, root and branch, and not stop attacking until every one of them is dead or fled. Whether they can do that, they will certainly try. If they succeed, that might end up being one good thing to come out of this for the Palestinians - Hamas was always a canker on their lives - but it will be one of the only good things to come from what promises to be a long period of war and death.

Does anyone think the leaders in Israel learned ANYTHING from America's experience after September 11, 2001? We launched a war in Afghanistan to (supposedly) kill Osama bin Laden and topple a tyrannical Islamic regime anchored in the 7th century as punishment for supporting bin Laden and giving him sanctuary. Only we found it incredibly difficult to find bin Laden and literally gave up on that task after being distracted by other bright shiny objects. And after toppling the Taliban government in weeks, we spent twenty plus years trying to root out extremists throughout the country that prevented any stability for the replacement government we installed, finally giving up and losing the country in a day (literally). The resulting destabilization led to ISIS which further worsed America's second misadventure by choice in Iraq and led to war in Syria as well, allowing Russia to advance its sphere of influence via Assad.

Gaza is one of the most densely populated regions in the world. I have no idea what proportion of residents might be active supporters of Hamas -- one percent? five percent? ten percent? But how does Israel expect to root out the bad seeds? What's the test they'll apply when going door to door over 140 square miles to find the bad guys? Israel will never be able to "root them all out" because the brutality of attempting to do so is only going to create more supporters who will come back in another wave in ten years as they reach adulthood. Attempting to control a territory by erecting a concrete wall around the entire perimiter and operating it like a prison won't work either - that's what Israel has been doing for decades. It is impossible to impose "order" upon milions of people who believe they are being oppressed while constraining their economy to impoverish them to the point that many feel they have nothing to lose by adopting violence to address their complaints.

I don't know what the right response should be in the immediate sense or the longer term but it seems absolutely clear no one in a leadership position of any of the groups involved has any ideas that will produce anything but more death for Israelis, Palestinians and potentially a whole lot more.


WTH

Does anyone think the leaders in Israel learned ANYTHING from America's experience after September 11, 2001?

I do. I think they learned that in the immediate aftermath of such an attack, the domestic populace will almost uniformly demand that something be done to punish the people who attacked. Whether it is fruitless, or even counter-productive, such a response is absolutely necessary. And that there will be very little, if any, serious international objections to taking those steps. Israel is now relatively unconstrained in taking whatever immediate response they want to take.

Unlike the U.S. in Afghanistan, Israel has very real security interests in what happens in Gaza (and the West Bank). So these attacks have just bought Israel another decade or two of time being able to implement their least-bad outcome. There is no actual solution, sadly. Israel will not allow a Palestinian state with an army or air force to exist as long as Hamas exists. It is in the best interest of other regional actors that Israel not be allowed to normalize relations within the region, so they support Hamas. So the stalemate continues until either of those things change - and neither is likely to ever change. The status quo is terrible, but it is Israel's least-bad outcome.

Now, Israel has much more time before the international community can create a circumstance where the status quo is no longer the least-bad outcome. The deaths from the initial attacks were significant enough to shock the international community (again, this is Israel's 9/11). But once you start seeing images of little kids and grandparents being held in captivity by Hamas, as they bid for prisoner exchanges? Israel will be able to point to this for at least a decade as to why Hamas - and therefore the Palestinian people that they govern - can never be allowed to have control of a sovereign state. And it will be at least a decade before memory fades enough for that argument to no longer be effective.

The status quo is terrible, but it is Israel's least-bad outcome.

Now, Israel has much more time before the international community can create a circumstance where the status quo is no longer the least-bad outcome.</>

Exactly. Well stated.


WTH

Whatever the "shoulds," there is now no way that Israel will ever allow Palestine to be a normal state so long as Hamas exists as a politically viable entity within it. Normal states have a security apparatus and a military. There is no scenario in which Israel will allow a military that might be controlled by Hamas in either the West Bank or Gaza.

It is possible that Hamas was the proverbial dog that caught the car, here. This is Israel's 9/11 and Iran Hostage Crisis, rolled up into one big traumatic ball.

This. I view this as a Pearl Harbor event for Hamas: Might make them feel good in the short term but a disaster of a strategic move.

What do you think the Palestinians should do to reclaim the occupied territory?

What occupied territory? The "From the river to the sea" thing is BS.
They've had 2 decades or more of autonomy in Gaza and have done absolutely nothing other than becoming a terrorist client state of Iran.

"What occupied territory? "

The West Bank for one thing. Anywhere the 'settlers' are moving to.

Even looking at Google maps, you will find them labelled 'occupied territory'.

" Hamas - and therefore the Palestinian people that they govern - "

Hamas is a militant group. Palestine, for good or ill, is governed by the PLO. Hamas is not governed.

Hamas is a militant group.

Hamas is the governing body of Gaza.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/08/world/middleeas...


Hamas has since been responsible for suicide attacks against Israeli civilians, and the kidnapping and killing of Israeli soldiers. The United States is among the countries that have deemed it a terrorist group. But Hamas is also the governing power in the Gaza Strip.
...
A year after Israel's 2005 withdrawal from Gaza, Hamas won Palestinian legislative elections, beating Fatah. In 2007, after factional fighting in Gaza, it ousted the Fatah-dominated Palestinian Authority and seized control of the Gaza Strip.

They're the elected government in the Gaza strip.

Hamas is a militant group. Palestine, for good or ill, is governed by the PLO. Hamas is not governed.

Perhaps in theory, but not in fact. Hamas governs the Palestinians that live in the Gaza Strip, and has for the last decade and a half:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governance_of_the_Ga...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_government_of_...

Fatah controls the Palestinian National Authority, which claims to have jurisdiction over Gaza - and lip service is paid to the idea that there is one Palestinian government, in hopes that the Fatah-Hamas conflict can be resolved. But the de facto governing body is Hamas.

But the de facto governing body is Hamas.

Responding to my own post, to be technical Hamas is not a governing body. But it controls all the governing ministries in Gaza, and the PNA cannot exercise any actual authority in the area. So the Palestinians that live in Gaza are de facto governed by Hamas, even though the governing body in the West Bank is nominally still the PNA.

Albaby

But we have not encroached on Mexican territory for quite a long time.

'Quite a long time' ?

Where I live was Mexico until 1850. Prior to statehood, guys like William Dana of Boston married California Mexicans to gain Mexican citizenship so they could get California land grants. Dana wanted Ojai or San Luis Obispo but got Nipomo instead. 'The Vaquero Song' mentions him.

Mexican communities were getting the shaft via eminent domain until... well, recently (see Chavez Ravine, aka Dodger Town).

1962 Dodger Stadium opened. Chavez Ravine families still resent being booted.
1967 Israel was getting attacked by its neighbors.

Not so long ago that the Arabs wanted to wipe Israel off the map and still do.

What do you think the Palestinians should do to reclaim the occupied territory?

If other nations sent arms and trained militias in Baja California to attack California Norte with waves of missiles from and regularly launch cross border incursions with suicide bombers hitting La Jolla and Newport Beach, you have to know Pendleton, Miramar and Naval Base San Diego would respond in a fashion similar to the IDF; blockades, barriers and armed responses.

It's probably too late to do anything now. Maybe if they had not aligned with nations that wanted to exterminate the Jews it would be different. As Albaby observed, Palestine failed to create "a security apparatus and a military" to keep the peace.

Were the Jews too harsh? What's too harsh when the only thing protecting you from Islamic zealots, keeping you alive, is a badass military?


Surely the Palestinians have a right to existence and territory too?
They've had a long time to create a state that would peacefully coexist.

Again, if your town was regularly plagued by suicide bombers.... The Pals made a horrific bed in which to lay. I truly feel sorry for those who are caught in the middle.

The global population issue is a separate one whose only solution involves a change to human instincts.

Nope. As WTH observed, Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas on the planet.

Overpopulation creates tension, opportunities for extremism.

Middle East or Central America, overpopulation and lack of opportunity is causing a dystopian existence for an increasing number of people on this little blue marble.

"Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas on the planet.

Overpopulation creates tension, opportunities for extremism."

It's so densely populated because it's a prison. Its borders are controlled by others.

"Palestine, for good or ill, is governed by the PLO. Hamas is not governed."

There is no Palestine. That's the problem.

"There is no Palestine. That's the problem."

True, however there is also no :
Mesopotamia
Assyria
Carth, ge
Babylonia
Phoenicia

yet the world survived

yet the world survived

and there won't be a Palestine after this. The Israelis have zero reason to bargain with these people.

yet the world survived

Yes, but there aren't any Phoenicians or Mesopotamians around.

There are millions of Palestinians. There is no country of Palestine. This creates enormous difficulties, both for the Palestinians and the countries where they live - about 3 million outside of Israel (mostly in Jordan), and a little more than 2 million within Gaza and the West Bank. More than five million, total.

That's a very large number of people, and it presents difficulties that the absence of Carthage does not.

And before that, there were (I believe they were called) Zionists that launched attacks during the British occupation of Palestine. At that time, the situation was reversed. The Palestinians were enduring Zionist attacks fairly regularly. I'm not sure if the Brits were running the local government, or it was semi-autonomous arrangement. After WWII, Palestine was declared not to exist any longer, and the roles were reversed. Suddenly the Jewish people (now Israelis) were in charge, and not long after began the Palestinian attacks to "take back their home". First the PLO, and then Hamas.

Not meant to be a complete history. Just an outline.

Displacing either peoples will result in violence from the displaced people against the people that are in control. No-win. Israel isn't helping matters by occupying land they aren't entitled to (per international law), and allowing settlers to move into those lands. On the other hand, even if they didn't do that, I don't think much would change. They'd still be attacked from time to time.

When superpowers start drawing lines, trouble seems to ensue. See the British in Afghanistan/Pakistan, India, they had a hand in several hot spots today. I know they were in Palestine before the War. I don't know if they redrew lines then, but the US and Britain (mostly) definitely established borders and renamed a chunk of that land "Israel".

And before that, there were (I believe they were called) Zionists that launched attacks during the British occupation of Palestine. At that time, the situation was reversed. The Palestinians were enduring Zionist attacks fairly regularly. I'm not sure if the Brits were running the local government, or it was semi-autonomous arrangement. After WWII, Palestine was declared not to exist any longer, and the roles were reversed. Suddenly the Jewish people (now Israelis) were in charge, and not long after began the Palestinian attacks to "take back their home". First the PLO, and then Hamas.

Not meant to be a complete history. Just an outline.

An incomplete outline. "Palestine" was never a country, per se. It was a British mandate established after WWI when the UK essentially took over governing what had been a part of the Ottoman Empire:

https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/display/docum...

The establishment of Great Britain's mandate over Palestine generated complex issues of international law. The mandate system was devised at the Paris Peace Conference with little prior analysis that might have given a clear answer as to its meaning. Complicating any analysis was the fact that three varieties of mandate were established, as Classes A, B, and C, with differing roles for the mandatory power.

The Palestine Mandate was a Class A mandate, meaning a more robust status than that provided for Class B or C territories. Even within Class A differences existed. The three Class A mandates were Mesopotamia (Iraq), Syria, and Palestine. Mesopotamia (Iraq) and Syria each had a local administration with the mandatory power in an advisory capacity, whereas in Palestine the administration consisted of British personnel. The mandate system was criticized at the time as a continuation of colonial rule in a new guise. Feeding this criticism was the fact that in Great Britain's governance structure, the Palestine Administration fell under the supervision of the Secretary for the Colonies.

At the same time, Great Britain was subject to oversight by the League of Nations, through its Permanent Mandates Commission, and was enjoined to work toward relinquishing its role. Great Britain's mandate over Palestine was further complicated by the fact that it involved a further injunction, namely, to foster a 'Jewish national home' there. A notion of self-determination of peoples was becoming acknowledged at this period, and it was unclear how the concept of a 'Jewish national home' might impact the population of Palestine, which was overwhelmingly Arab.

Bolding mine. This notion of "Well, there was a Palestine until da Jooz stole it" isn't born out by historical fact. The plan was always to create something of a Jewish state out of the area.

Which brings us to WWII, and Palestinian cooperation with Nazi Germany:
https://www.hoover.org/research/mufti-and-holocaus...
Germany stands for an uncompromising struggle against the Jews. It is self-evident that the struggle against the Jewish national homeland in Palestine forms part of this struggle, since such a national homeland would be nothing other than a political base for the destructive influence of Jewish interests. Germany also knows that the claim that Jewry plays the role of an economic pioneer in Palestine is a lie. Only the Arabs work there, not the Jews. Germany is determined to call on the European nations one by one to solve the Jewish problem and, at the proper moment, to address the same appeal to non-European peoples.
'Adolf Hitler to Haj Amin Al-Husseini, mufti of Jerusalem, November 28, 19411

The Mufti was all for teaming up with Hitler:
https://time.com/4084301/hitler-grand-mufi-1941/
Al-Husseini began the conversation by declaring that the Germans and the Arabs had the same enemies: 'the English, the Jews, and the Communists.' He proposed an Arab revolt all across the Middle East to fight the Jews; the English, who still ruled Palestine and controlled Iraq and Egypt; and even the French, who controlled Syria and Lebanon. (The British had secured a mandate for Palestine at the Paris peace conference in 1919, and made halting attempts to create a 'Jewish national home' there without prejudicing the rights of the Arab population.) He also wanted to form an Arab legion, using Arab prisoners from the French Empire who were then POWs inside Germany. He also asked Hitler to declare publicly, as the German government had privately, that it favored 'the elimination of the Jewish national home' in Palestine.

Al-Husseini would in fact form a division of the SS in Bosnia consisting of Muslims.

The Israelis post WW2 did engage in attacks on British government centers in their bid for independence, that is also a fact. Shortly after WW2 the UN granted a mandate for a state of Israel and the Israelis declared independence.

"That's a very large number of people, and it presents difficulties that the absence of Carthage does not."

Yes, but life does move on; there were a lot of Carthaginians in their day. The atrocities being displayed today in Israel is only matched by the atrocities being seen in Ukraine, a former SSR that will also survive the changing times.

The question on the table is, what's next?

If the Gazans think they had it rough before, they ain't seen nothing yet. I daresay that Israeli jails will soon be overflowing with military-aged men (assuming any are taken prisoner). From a governmental point of view, there's no way that Hamas should be allowed to control their legislature or whatever it is. I also don't see their leadership (currently in a hotel in Qatar) being long for this world.

It's so densely populated because it's a prison. Its borders are controlled by others

Gaza is a prison of its own making. Whether Palestine is a client state of another nation that is hellbent on eliminating Israel or not, the incessant suicide bombers, sporadic missile attacks, and militia forays made hard border controls necessary.

Again, if some banana republic started training and supplying Mexican militias to attack our border states the US would respond quickly and decisively.

Sadly, when populations are fighting, in large part, on behalf of imaginary beings, fact based resolution are hard to come by..

Shortly after WW2 the UN granted a mandate for a state of Israel and the Israelis declared independence. - Dope

-----------------

Worth noting the UN Plan also called for the creation of a Palestinian State. The Israeli's accepted the plan basically agreeing to live peacefully next to a sovereign Palestine. OTOH, the Palestinians rejected the Plan and soon after helped launch the six day war where they and the rest of the sneaky Arabs got the butt kicked and were driven off the land that would have been Palestine. Over the years, Israel has given back some (most?) of that land in various land for peace deals,. deals that the Palestinians inevitably did not honor.

replying to myself.

The 1948 Arab Israeli war was not the Six Day ar. The Six Day War was in 1967.

Sorry, my mistake

Thanks for filling in some gaps.

I didn't say the Jews stole it. I said that -to the best of my knowledge- both sides have justifiable claims to the territory, or parts of it. They are stealing some NOW, advancing beyond the internationally recognized borders and establishing settlements in those annexed areas. Some were for defensive purposes (e.g. the Golan Heights are a good rocket/missile launching site if you want to rain down fire on Israel). Others are perhaps less justifiable.

I don't really have a dog in this fight. I think Israel is creating an apartheid environment, but Hamas (and others) aren't giving them a lot of choice. As usual, I suspect most of the ordinary citizens (of both sides) just want to go about their lives unmolested.

Israel needs to be very careful. I think the goal of Hamas was to get Israel to overreact in a way that it pulls other nations into the battle. Taking hostages required Israel to move into Gaza. Lebanon has pledged support for the Palestinians if Israel were to make such a move. A full scale war in the area will not be good for anybody, especially Israel. The US is moving military support into the region to serve as a deterrent to other nations. Hopefully we are on the downslope of this conflict, and not just the beginning.
Alan

Worth noting the UN Plan also called for the creation of a Palestinian State. The Israeli's accepted the plan basically agreeing to live peacefully next to a sovereign Palestine. OTOH, the Palestinians rejected the Plan and soon after helped launch the six day war where they and the rest of the sneaky Arabs got the butt kicked and were driven off the land that would have been Palestine. Over the years, Israel has given back some (most?) of that land in various land for peace deals,. deals that the Palestinians inevitably did not honor.

Yup, this. You added some of the most valuable context of all.
The Palestinians displaced by the formation of Israel listened to the likes of Egypt's Nassar and King Abdullah of Jordan who convinced them they could join forces and drive the Israelis into the Mediterranean. That didn't happen - the combined Arabic armies lost - and with that loss the Israelis were in no mood to entertain anything.

During the course of the war some 750,000 Palestinians fled Israel in the Nakba; at the same time, many Jews were expelled from or hounded out of Arab states.

I think Israel is creating an apartheid environment, but Hamas (and others) aren't giving them a lot of choice.

I think Israel is doing what it needs to do to stem the regularly recurring attacks by Arabs.

As the populations of both groups increase, the clashes will intensify under the banners of their respective fairy tales.

I agree Israel thinks it is doing what is required. In the process, they are making more enemies (i.e. motivated enemies that take action, not just enemies that mutter under their breath and go about their day). And, as I said, Hamas isn't giving them a lot of options.

Politically, I don't know if there is an answer short of genocide. One side will probably have to wipe out the other. But the average citizen on both sides likely just wants to open their shop, or till their little plot of land, in peace. Basically, they want to be left alone. But some subset of each population wants the other population expunged, and they're active enough that they seem to control the actual politics of their respective sides.

At this point in time, no one in the region can stand up to Israel. So either Hamas is stupid (unlikely), or they're gambling on Israel to blunder into a bad situation (like we did in Iraq), and either waste vast sums of money, or become a pariah that nations would hesitate to support.

Politically, I don't know if there is an answer short of genocide. One side will probably have to wipe out the other.

Or there may simply never be an "answer" - that some unsatisfactory, horrible inconclusive muddle will continue on for decades and decades. That, I think, is what the less optimistic folks in Israel (and among their supporters) have resigned themselves to. There is no way out, but people can stay kind of where they are for a very long time.

At this point in time, no one in the region can stand up to Israel. So either Hamas is stupid (unlikely), or they're gambling on Israel to blunder into a bad situation (like we did in Iraq), and either waste vast sums of money, or become a pariah that nations would hesitate to support.

Or they simply miscalculated. They clearly wanted to strike a blow that would derail the status quo: a slow, gradual drift towards Israel reconciling and normalizing relations with the Saudi sphere of countries. But they might not have anticipated being "successful" enough in hurting Israel that they would galvanize the country into annihilating Hamas while also committing such atrocities that Israel can probably avoid becoming a pariah nation while doing so.

Israel won't become a pariah state.

https://twitter.com/i24NEWS_EN/status/171171819502...

'About 40 babies were taken out on gurneys... Cribs overturned, strollers left behind, doors left wide open'

Our correspondent
@Nicole_Zedek
continues to survey the horror scenes left behind in Kibbutz Kfar Aza where Hamas invaded and murdered dozens of Israelis in their homes

40 babies beheaded by Hamas. This kind of barbarity is straight from the 1940's.

1pg: Politically, I don't know if there is an answer short of genocide.

I understand that, as there is no solution, but, to me, that has come to mean it will take time to see which of the big variables changes. I cannot foresee variables changing, but it might over time. It looks like the attack may have been done to put a kibosh on Saudi normalizing relations with Israel. That would be a good objective for Iran, so I would watch that. If Saudi resumes normalizing after a pause, that's good for Israel. If Iran recommences complying with the nuclear agreement, or signals it intends to, that is good. If neither happens, the attack had an affect on Saudi, and Iran might be headed for Nukes.

This kind of barbarity is straight from the 1940's.

Agreed.

But if Israel responds in-kind, or similarly, then they will be perceived as no better. If they start slaughtering civilians, they may become a pariah state, and any goodwill for them from this attack will evaporate. If they restrict it to Hamas only...well...after 20 years of waiting the Taliban is back in control on their country. I would expect similar with Hamas.

They are sort of damned if they do, damned if they don't. They need global goodwill to continue this conflict. Which, so far, Hamas has enabled.

If they could prove the weapons came from Iran, they might be able to use that, also. (I'm assuming they came from Iran.)

Similar to what albaby conjectured. Disrupting a gradual normalization. That may have been the objective. In which case, Israel needs to be very careful, or that may be destroyed. It's been decades in the making, and I suspect it's very fragile. They can't NOT respond. I understand that. But they risk all progress being lost if they respond in a manner that kills lots of civilians. Or "insults Islam".

They're not going to respond "in kind". They're going to wage warfare as they have. The Palestinians will pack their terrorists in with civilians and hospitals and what not to try to maximize the carnage.

The Iranians have been reported to be behind this, yes. They've been pouring cash into the region to buy better weapons and surround Israel with fanatics to overwhelm them from all sides.

Dope1: About 40 babies were taken out on gurneys... Cribs overturned, strollers left behind, doors left wide open

Initial reporting by Nicole Zedek has been confirmed by French journalist Margot Haddad:

For those asking for the source. They are multiple: Israeli army, internal intelligence service and atrocious images which reached me and which was able to be cross-check. But the best source remains this: courageous journalists from the foreign press who were able to see/agreed to see with their own eyes the bodies in Kfar Aza.
Translated from the French by Google

https://twitter.com/margothaddad/status/1711756690...

<Sadly, when populations are fighting, in large part, on behalf of imaginary beings, fact based resolution are hard to come by..>

So true...

"The take-home message is that we should blame religion itself, not religious extremism - as though that were some kind of terrible perversion of real,
decent religion. Voltaire got it right long ago: 'Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.'
So did Bertrand Russell: 'Many people would sooner die than think. In fact they do."
― Richard Dawkins

ON TOPIC! : )

"The take-home message is that we should blame religion itself, not religious extremism - as though that were some kind of terrible perversion of real,
decent religion. Voltaire got it right long ago: 'Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.'
So did Bertrand Russell: 'Many people would sooner die than think. In fact they do."
― Richard Dawkins

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