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- Manlobbi
Halls of Shrewd'm / US Policy❤
No. of Recommendations: 5
No. of Recommendations: 7
No. of Recommendations: 3
I didn’t read that as MKL being for sale. Maybe some or all of their ventures businesses and maybe some of their less successful insurance businesses.
I get that some of the phrases they used in the press release can mean “exploring a sale” but I would be surprised if MKL sold the entire company.
Their intrinsic value calc eliminates the float liability entirely. Does it include deferred tax liabilities? I’m out of the office and can’t tell
No. of Recommendations: 3
Their intrinsic value calc eliminates the float liability entirely. Does it include deferred tax liabilities?
I don't know how to attach a file here but their calculation seems to take a multiple of 12 to "adjusted 3-year average operating earnings" which include investment gains in addition to underwriting income. Then they add equity securities' market value (from what I can tell w/o deferred tax liabilities), and cash; then subtract debt & minority interests. There seems to be a bit of double counting here (investment income for example includes dividend income from equities I think) and a bit aggressive as well as no allowance is made for deferred taxes.
No. of Recommendations: 2
Strangely, there is no balance sheet presented in the Q4 results press release. I went back & looked at 10-Q for Q3-24, and I am pretty sure they did not include deferred tax liabilities in the intrinsic value calculation in the Q4 release. And also there is no liability for float either & some double counting. Seems to be a very aggressive estimation of IV.
No. of Recommendations: 1
From Markel link:
“…We asked shareholders, including JANA, for feedback on what we're doing well and where we can improve. We value the thoughtful input of our shareholders—it's a big part of what makes Markel Group special.
While opinions varied, we're committed to listening, learning, and considering all perspectives at both the board and company levels. This process strengthens us for the benefit of our customers, shareholders, and team members.
To that end, we have decided to conduct a review of our business. It will be an opportunity to reflect on the changes over the past two years and ensure our goals and direction align with our shareholders' priorities.
The board will lead this review, assisted by external consultants and advisors…”
This does not exactly instill a ton of confidence in management and seems quite un-Berkshire like with some self-doubt, reflection and use of expensive “external consultants and advisors” Hey, I want MKL to thrive as a 10- year owner, but I have been underwhelmed compared to Berkshire.
No. of Recommendations: 13
I sold all my Markel today, held since the ipo. My wife worked there and was later the cpa for DeFazio restaurant where we had lunches with Tony Markel. To put it bluntly I'd lost interest in Markel long ago and Gayner annoys me nowadays seem9ingly childlike at times. Bought in 87 or 88, can't remember, a 40 something bagger. Long ago I loved following that business.
No. of Recommendations: 13
Mr. dealraker-
You've held an equity position in this company for nearly 40 years. It has delivered you 40x your original investment. You've made the decision to cash out.
As a side observation, that comes with whopper tax consequences. Congratulations.
After four decades, can you explain why you bought (did you buy or inherit these shares)? What has changed so much to cause you to bailout 100%? In my observation, there are far more reasons investors sell shares versus the singular reason they buy ('i'm going to make money').
I've held MKL for 15 years. Admittedly, its no BRK but my experience has been of a (imperfect) company that has delivered me a satisfactory return over the long haul with a comfortable risk level. I'm happy and sleep well. It's my #2 position behind a very outsized BRK position (since 1998). It's been lumpy, but less so when viewing from 1.5 decades. The only investment 'results' measurement for me is am I meeting my individual goals. So far so good with MKL.
There is no doubt Tom Gaynor is a 'rah, rah MKL' kind of guy, but respectfully...to call him childish is an interesting choice. My opinion is the guy thinks/acts of me first. A high bar and important quality I demand. He also walks his talk as a MKL shareholder, that goes so far as to acquire shares from his own wallet.
Ole' dealraker, please understand I'm not flaming you...I actually enjoy your commentary and experience.
As to the Jana squeaky wheel situation. Tom has to listen to them. It is in his job description. They are shareholders and I get that. The heartburn i'm have is spending cash on outside 'advisors'. As I've said before...the kind of decision that would make Mr. Munger roll over.
I'm hoping the activist shareholder strategy is to politely listen, stay rational and then let the MKL shareholder culture tell them to piss off. Don't know if that's possible but i'm inclined to think MKL owners are similar to BRK in such matters. The board also.
I don't see the 'business review' as an advertisement to sell. A long look in the mirror isn't necessarily a bad thing. Plus, I really appreciate the buyback decision.
Head down, keep digging. That's my crystal ball view.
Cheers.
m
No. of Recommendations: 13
mdtis as is the case in all cases it is best to ask the guy who's penning a decision what his situation is, thus what bias he may carry. Not to do so is simply a short cut that can be costly.
AJG (I have 62,500 shares of AJG) is my top position and Berk (25 A shares) is next. Markel was once my third largest position but other stocks have gained more in recent years. Anyway about 1%. Like Berkshire my initial investment (I inherited Berkshire...I bought Markel) was tiny in both. But time makes thing less tiny! LOL.
So selling Markel has these reasons/conditions for me:
I am bored with Markel, I don't like the culture AT ALL any longer.
Gayner has some things about him that I like (his awareness of his limits as a stock investor make him effective) and some things I detest.
He seems even childish to me at times.
Markel is embarrassing to me in its attempt to mimic Berkshire, its non insurance attempts to me are stupid.
All the good people I knew at Markel are gone.
Markel to me is nothing special and I do not enjoy following it.
And maybe most importantly, my wife a few years ago encouraged me to make some investment changes. I participate regularly on the COBF forums and my wife is often beside me while I pen my stuff there. She thinks it is excellent that I do that, I'm older than her and she thinks it keeps me thriving and alive...and making changes to the investment portfolio also makes me mentally active which she and I think is good. I have made personal friends on the COBF board, we eat meals together. I'd dealing with some awful health conditions right now which limit my interactions with those on the COBF forum in person however.
So the Markel thing is a small issue, yes very taxable. My wife owns Markel and will not sell hers. She does not ever look at her investments...ever. She is buy and hold and stays busy running book festivals and reading...and doing hiking trips with me, and other travels too.
I wrote this off-the-cuff quickly, no proof reading and it may not include everything I'm thinking...but obviously has some of it. Have a good day.
No. of Recommendations: 9
mdtis...I should add that I have been gifting Markel stock for some time. I contribute to trail and Greenway building in my area and I've used my stock in Markel for that for some time. Generally small amounts of $5,000 or so pretty regularly so slowly my position in Markel has gone down.
No. of Recommendations: 3
I know many of you who attend the BRK annual meeting also attend the MKL event that gets hosted over the weekend. Would anyone be generous enough to share notes and observations on MKL? I am considering selling my stake in MKL but would be really interested in hearing from anyone who had an updated perspective on the company.
No. of Recommendations: 1
I am considering selling my stake in MKL but would be really interested in hearing from anyone who had an updated perspective on the company.
This is not investment advice but I prefer Fairfax (which I own) way more than Markel.
No. of Recommendations: 2
This is not investment advice but I prefer Fairfax (which I own) way more than Markel.
Munger_Disciple, if you don't mind, can you please explain why you prefer Fairfax?
Thanks in advance,
Andy
No. of Recommendations: 2
Munger_Disciple,
Thanks for offering a point of view. I have traditionally thought of Markel and Fairfax occupying some similar traits. What is it about Fairfax that you think makes it substantially better than Markel? Is that a comment about current buy in opportunity (e.g., near term valuation and factors present a good opportunity), or is that an overall comment about long term business attractiveness as an investor?
No. of Recommendations: 1
No. of Recommendations: 4
“I know many of you who attend the BRK annual meeting also attend the MKL event that gets hosted over the weekend. Would anyone be generous enough to share notes and observations on MKL?”
Please see post below with link to the video of 2025 Markel Omaha Brunch on Markel board:
https://www.shrewdm.com/MB?pid=680656633
