Personal Finance Topics / Macroeconomic Trends and Risks
No. of Recommendations: 1
I had expected Farley to resist writing off Ford's investment in EVs, until he retires, so the writeoff becomes someone else's problem. Nope. Just sent nearly $20B to money heaven. Interestingly, F is trading up a mite after hours, like everyone expected this, and is relived the shoe finally dropped.
Ford retreats from EVs, takes $19.5 billion charge as Trump policies take hold
Dec 15 (Reuters) - Ford Motor said on Monday it will take a $19.5 billion writedown and is killing several electric-vehicle models, in the most dramatic example yet of the auto industry's retreat from battery-powered models in response to the Trump administration's policies and weakening EV demand.
The Dearborn, Michigan-based company said it will stop making the F-150 Lightning in its electric vehicle form, but will pivot to producing an extended-range electric model, a version of a hybrid vehicle called an EREV, which uses a gas-powered generator to recharge the battery. The company is also scrapping a next-generation electric truck, codenamed the T3, as well as planned electric commercial vans.
Ford will spread out the writedown, taken primarily in the fourth quarter and continuing through next year and into 2027, the company said. About $8.5 billion is related to cancelling planned EV models. Around $6 billion is tied to the dissolution of a battery joint venture with South Korea’s SK On, and $5 billion on what Ford called “program-related expenses.”https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ford-retreats-evs-t...This is the part of the article that makes me laff.
For its future EV lineup, the company is shifting focus to more affordable EV models, conceived by a so-called skunkworks team in California. The first model from that team is slated to be priced at about $30,000 and go on sale in 2027. This midsize EV truck is being built at Ford’s Louisville plant.Farley has indicated that "affordability" is not his objective. His objective is to continuously push ATP and GP higher. I have offered before that that "affordable" EV to be built in Louisville is vaporware, a sop to the pols and workers in that plant, so they think they have a future. Farley openly said, two years ago, he wants to exit the two row SUV segment, because "competition" forces him to charge less than he wants to, dragging down his ATP and GP metrics.
Here's something to chew on, that greenfield "Blue Oval City" plant that, now, is supposed to start building gas powered trucks, is supposed to have a capacity of 500,000 trucks/year. The Rouge truck plant has a capacity of 300,000/year, and Kentucky Truck has a capacity of about 500,000/year. Does Farley actually expect their truck sales to increase by 60% by 2029? Of will they close another truck plant, to keep "Blue Oval City" running at an economic rate, in addition to Louisville Assembly standing idle?
Steve
No. of Recommendations: 4
"Farley has indicated that "affordability" is not his objective. His objective is to continuously push ATP and GP higher."
Yes. Share Holder Value.
Farley is waving the white flag of surrender on domestic made EVs.
There is a problem with selling $60k f-150s or huge SUVs. In an increasingly worsening income inequality within the USA. There is a limited number of buyers. Then what?
Yesterday there was a funny article by Reuters reported by Yahoo:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/analysis-ford-ev-re...Analysis-Ford’s EV retreat highlights industry dilemma: Build for the US or the world?
Farley had spent years telling staff and investors that catching up to Tesla and China’s leading EV makers amounted to an existential struggle. Now – after losing about $13 billion on EVs since 2023 – Farley says the path to survival lies in ditching these unprofitable models.
“We can't allocate money for things that will not make money,” he told Reuters on Monday. “As much as I love those products, the customers in the U.S. were not going to pay for them. And that was the end of that.”
Most automakers now can’t sell EVs in the U.S. profitably or in volume – but must sell them in China, Europe and other markets to appease regulators and compete with Chinese automakers expanding globally.US made EVs are inferior in quality and cost more. How does that work for selling EVs overseas? It don't.
Perhaps making US domestic EVs in Mexico and exporting MIGHT generate some sales. But quality wins out. That path ultimately leads to failure.
So what does Farley forsee the future of vehicle sales in the USA? An isolated ICE paradise?
EV adoption has slowed within the US. But that is the future. Fuel costs are much less than gasoline. Used EVs can be acquired for $20k-$30k. Charging stations continue to be built.
Can the 100% be maintained forever? Especially when Americans see the rest of the world benefiting from lower cost, better made Chinese made EVs. I don't think so.
Poor management at Ford.
Heh. I'm thinking of another Ford management decision.
https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2018/1... Henry Ford II passed up the opportunity to get Volkswagen for nothing.
After World War II, the victors divided Germany into pieces, and the British found themselves with the region that housed the auto factory. They offered it to the eldest son of Edsel Ford in 1948.
“I don't think what we're being offered here is worth a dime," said Ernest Breech, chairman of the board at Ford, who joined the auto executive on a trip to Cologne, Germany, to discuss the idea. Hank the Deuce declined the offer.
No. of Recommendations: 0
“I don't think what we're being offered here is worth a dime," said Ernest Breech, chairman of the board at Ford, who joined the auto executive on a trip to Cologne, Germany, to discuss the idea. Hank the Deuce declined the offer.The attitude at the big three has been "small cars make small profits", since forever. If you buy the idea of the "K" economy, it sort of makes sense. Focus in the small number of people in the upper arm of the K, and ignore the people in the lower arm. Then close plants and lay people off to "right size" the company for the small number of well heeled customers. Ironically, it is the two companies that are most identified with "affordable" transportation, Ford and VW, that are most aggressively pursuing this move "upmarket".
2022:
Volkswagen’s Bold Plan and Upmarket Aspirationshttps://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-news/volkswagen-...2025:
Audi Announces Plans to Move Upmarket With Less Focus on Lower Priced Models https://audiclubna.org/audi-announces-plans-to-mov...2023:
Ford CEO Farley Says Two Row ICE Crossovers Going Away https://fordauthority.com/2023/02/ford-ceo-farley-...2025:
Ford Wants to Be 'The Porsche of Off-Road'https://www.motor1.com/news/747639/ford-wants--to-...That is the plan: VWs priced like Audis. Audis priced like Bentleys. Fords priced like Porsches.
Steve
No. of Recommendations: 3
GM has also pulled back on EVs.
9/4/2025
https://www.cnbc.com/2025/09/04/gm-cuts-output-del...General Motors is cutting output at one of its main electric-vehicle factories, the latest automaker to pull back on EVs as U.S. President Donald Trump’s administration yanks federal support for green cars.
GM will stop production of two electric Cadillac SUVs at its assembly plant in Spring Hill, Tennessee, during the month of December, according to a person familiar with the matter and communications to GM employees viewed by Reuters.https://electrek.co/2025/10/21/gm-kills-brightdrop...GM kills BrightDrop electric van production, blames ‘slow demand’ as sales were rampingI'm listening to a podcast that is in part covering the change of direction of Ford & GM.
https://cleantechnica.com/2025/12/18/california-us...One fella makes a valid point about the hubris of the legacy automakers. They see Muck's Tesla profits take in 2021-2022. They think:
"We're the experts. This will be easy peasey!". And the commentator said Ford & GM EVs announcements really drove those stocks up. I checked Morningstar-F & GM stocks peaked on 12/31/2021. But TSLA had a fan base & demand & Musk had figured out keeping production costs down which the legacy automakers weren't able to do.
2020 to 6/30/2022 was an EV stock bubble. Everything to do with EVs was bought.
Another point is that F & GM shoved EVs down their dealer's throats. They did not want EVs or pushed them. That certainly didn't help F & GM.
The only way, IMO, F & GM survive is if they have partnerships with Chinese EV manufacturers just as VW has just done with Xpeng.
I recently posted about:"China EV Global Domination" on the "new" Macroeconomic board:
https://discussion.fool.com/t/china-ev-global-domi...
No. of Recommendations: 1
wish there was a more appropriate board for vehicles, GM never been used.
lost in the dementia of his affordability rallies, trump bizarrely professed some fascination with quality subcompacts made in japan.
and yes, during the same photoshoot where he was junking gas mileage standards.
now, we know trump (nor most trump voters) would not fit into any of these vehicles; maybe the steering wheels made his hands look normal.
going with the usual trump base rate, this is likely a race for
A. bribes from japan such that these will formally be allowed to go into production
B. bribes from the big 3 to block these from going into production
given how trump has crushed all american makers, and even ran immigration raids on foreign companies investing to manufacture here, i dont think they will fall for it.
The Atlantic theorizes trump is trying to get these companies to eat all the capex and profits to make affordable cars, not realizing MAGA voters overwhelmingly prefer a pickup or monster SUV. just ask musk.
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'“They’re very small; they’re really cute,” Trump said. Honda and other Japanese companies “do a beautiful job” of making these micro-
cars, he said, “but we’re not allowed to make them in this country.” Two days later, Trump doubled down. “I have just approved TINY CARS to be built in America,” he posted on Truth Social. “These cars of the very near future are inexpensive, safe, fuel efficient and, quite simply, AMAZING!!! START BUILDING THEM NOW!'
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/2025/12/don...
No. of Recommendations: 0
One fella makes a valid point about the hubris of the legacy automakers. They see Muck's Tesla profits take in 2021-2022. They think:"We're the experts. This will be easy peasey!".
That is exactly what I have been suggesting, for a couple years. The big three are all about escalating ATP and GP to the moon. They looked at the ATP and GP that Tesla was posting, when they were the only game in town, and they figured "easy money", so jumped on the bandwagon. Now they are sending tens of Billions to money heaven.
Steve
No. of Recommendations: 0
A. bribes from japan such that these will formally be allowed to go into production
B. bribes from the big 3 to block these from going into production
You forgot C: (protected free speech) from the insurance industry that regards anything of less than average size as "unsafe", and D: more (protected free speech) from the oil industry that wants to maximize demand for gas.
Steve
No. of Recommendations: 4
The big three are all about escalating ATP and GP to the moon.
_____________________________________________________________________
Two observations:
1) When I was in business, I would be amazed at the guys who ran news/cigarette kiosks 14 hours a day. They had 100% profit margins, but were slaves to their work. There were those who saw their businesses in all sorts of perspectives. My concept was to maximize net profit. All other metrics took a back seat. While those guys slaved selling cigarettes at huge margins, I felt it better to sell Cisco switches for tens of thousands of dollars at 25% margin.
2) The fax machine was invented in the US. After around 1980, nearly every fax machine in the world was made in Japan. Around 1984, in order to deal with Japanese firms, I was "forced" to buy a fax machine. It cost me $1,200 (1984 dollars) for a second-hand thermal machine about the size of a medium-sized laser printer. Within a decade the world was flooded with them and soon they became inexpensive commodities. Years ago, I started to see Chinese EV's in Europe. The Neo's shown in their Oslo showroom blew me away with their designs and their clever battery subscription/swap idea. The only thing saving EV's in the US is Tesla, but the world is moving onwards to mor advanced, yet lower priced, Chinese models.
Jeff
No. of Recommendations: 0
EV adoption has slowed within the US. But that is the future.
Maybe. This is a country where long distance drives are the norm. Until there is an acceptance that charging stations are everywhere, as easy and plentiful as gas stations, that you don't have to be constantly charging up on your road trip, I don't see wide spread acceptance of electric vehicles in this large car culture. I love the idea in theory, but am not comfortable with it in practice at this time, but then again, we prefer a road trip rather than going on an airplane.
IP
No. of Recommendations: 0
"Maybe. This is a country where long distance drives are the norm. Until there is an acceptance that charging stations are everywhere, as easy and plentiful as gas stations, that you don't have to be constantly charging up on your road trip, I don't see wide spread acceptance of electric vehicles in this large car culture. I love the idea in theory, but am not comfortable with it in practice at this time, but then again, we prefer a road trip rather than going on an airplane."
We haven't reached that saturation yet. But at least along the interstates there is an adequate number of charging stations.
I believe the key to EVs is reducing the length of charging time. It is currently at 20 minutes to charge a EV to 80%. If that can be reduced to 10 minutes then it is close to an ICE vehicle.
No. of Recommendations: 6
The last nation-wide infrastructure project that the US built out was the interstate highway system. Since then, as our railroad transportation system for consumers (vs. freight) languished, funds were poured into air transportation.
During this time, Europe, followed (and exceeded) by China took Japan's idea of fast trains as their preferred transportation infrastructure. China is now crisscrossed with around 50,000km of 300 km/hr passenger rail lines (which augment the fantastic subway/metro mass transit systems found in in most of their cities cities). When we were roaming around in China, we figured that the overall trip time from point to point was a break-even taking a train or flying 15,000 km (1,000 miles). That's almost from NYC to Omaha, Kansas City or Miami. And you can reach across the US in a day by train.
If there wer reasonably priced EV rentals at train stations, there are tremendous benefits to rethinking things.
Jeff
No. of Recommendations: 4
We haven't reached that saturation yet. But at least along the interstates there is an adequate number of charging stations.
With all the flip flopping our gov't does, without regard as to how it impacts regular people, you have to forgive me if I wait until it's a done deal before I make an investment in their promises.
IP
No. of Recommendations: 1
"With all the flip flopping our gov't does, without regard as to how it impacts regular people, you have to forgive me if I wait until it's a done deal before I make an investment in their promises.
IP"
It seems the private sector is expanding charging station without government help.
I am continuously reading more & more stories like below.
https://electrek.co/2025/12/19/bp-pulse-ev-fast%e2...Airports are quickly turning into some of the busiest places to charge an EV, and bp pulse is leaning into that trend by officially opening a new DC fast‑charging hub today near Chicago’s O’Hare International Airport. Similar bp pulse hubs are already operating near airports in Los Angeles, Boston, San Francisco, Fort Lauderdale, and Houston.A few months ago Tesla built a 30 bay supercharger station here in Las Cruces NM next to an I-10 interstate exit.
The City of Las Cruces, El Paso Electric and Forth Mobility has instituted an EV car sharing program here.
https://lascruces.gov/ev-carsharing-comes-to-las-c...https://www.epelectric.com/new-mexico-evI still drive an ICE vehicles. I drive cheap very used cars of manufacturers of renowned reliability. A few years ago I drove to the East coast of the USA. I sprung for a rental. My days of flying in cattle car aircraft are long gone. I suppose I could have flown business class and rented a car locally for the same price. But I enjoyed the drive and seeing the country. YMMV
No. of Recommendations: 0
I just ran across 2 articles.
https://insideevs.com/features/782245/byd-breathro...Why BYD's 5-Minute Fast-Charging Is Our Technology Of The Year
A warning to any automakers slowing down in the EV race: Chinese giant BYD is making the impossible possible.I'm sure it will be years before this becomes common just like solid state batteries. But it is on the horizon.
A cautionary tail here.
https://electrek.co/2025/12/19/tesla-rental-fleet-...Tesla rental fleet that bought into Elon Musk’s self-driving lies goes bankrupt due to depreciationThis was a Dutch company. And Hertz had a similar tale of woe.
We all know depreciation is a killer on new vehicles but especially for EVs.
intercst picked up a lightly used Tesla in the $25k range I believe. I can buy a cheap reliable ICE vehicle for less than $25k. So that's what I do. Again YMMV
No. of Recommendations: 5
This is a country where long distance drives are the norm.
I'm pretty sure that I've seen statistics like "99+% of drives are under 40 miles", so what do you mean by "norm" here? The norm is a road trip (100+ miles) once or twice a year.
We are a pretty normal family. 50-51 weeks a year, we drive mostly locally - commuting to work (was 4 miles for me, 11 miles for wife, 22 miles for eldest kid, etc), commuting to school (4 miles, later 6 miles, one summer session was 34 miles), shopping (0.5 - 8 miles), various appointments (doctors mostly, 0.5 to 22 miles, once over the years was 40 miles). Once in a while, maybe twice a year we had a longer trip, like to see a show in a nearby city (60 miles), or to attend one of the kids graduations (90 miles). Then 1-2 weeks a year, we do a road trip, usually between 250 (theme parks, etc) and 800 miles away (in-laws are 640 miles, other family almost 800 miles), and in the years of using our EV (and now we are 100% EV, all 3 cars are EV) we haven't experience problems with charging on the road trips. We would stop at a rest stop (or at a WaWa or similar) and plug the car in, then everyone would go wait for the bathroom, stretch our legs, get a snack and/or a drink, or just sit at a picnic table and have lunch/dinner that we packed. And then we would go back in the car and continue our trip. Once at a rest stop in Florida, the car notified me that it was finished charging WHILE we were in line at Dunkin to pick up our coffees and hot chocolates. To avoid idle charges, I bumped up the charge limit from 80% to 90% so it would start charging again. By the time we got back to the car, it was at about 85%. Then we continued along our way.
The whole range anxiety thing is largely obviated at this point.
No. of Recommendations: 4
I'm pretty sure that I've seen statistics like "99+% of drives are under 40 miles", so what do you mean by "norm" here? The norm is a road trip (100+ miles) once or twice a year.
The norm, here in the USA, is wide open spaces and the independence of seeing it all on your schedule. From an AI query: Yes, Americans are driving more and many prefer it over flying for vacations and holidays, citing cost savings, flexibility, comfort, and the experience of seeing new scenery as key reasons, especially with high airfare and airport hassles. While flying is faster, surveys consistently show a majority prefer road trips, with recent data indicating rising vehicle miles driven and strong interest in driving for holiday travel in late 2025 and 2024.
I lived in Europe for a couple of years, where the price of gasoline resulted in absolute restraint over going any distance at all. Gasoline is much cheaper here and that economic restraint is less prominent. We are outliers even here in the US, no doubt, as retirees who travel extensively by car, often in areas we know nothing about, often in other countries. We think nothing of driving an hour away for a pickleball game. Much of our driving is rural, and beyond the range issue, the idea of a still unconventional vehicle breaking down in an area that doesn't broadly implement electric vehicles, concerns me for emergency repairs. Our working son does not hesitate to drive 90 minutes one way just to go hiking, fishing, biking, rock climbing in the nearby mountains. Often that is just a day trip, and often he drives deeper into the mountains, or spends multiple days in this rural area where electric charging stations are no where to be found. His friends do the same. My parents spent the first 10 years of their retirement living full time traveling extensively in a motorhome. From Alaska, Canada, all of the continental USA, to Mexico. As a kid we would hitch up the tent trailer to the station wagon, pile in the 6 kids and a dog, drive all vacations and summers long, as my parents were educators with a generous vacation schedule. Covered the whole USA and much of Canada in my childhood. I lived for a year in a 17' motorhome with my brother and parents, traveling all throughout Europe. From Norway to Portugal/Spain, over to Greece and as far east as what was then Yugoslavia. Parents were on a sabbatical getting materials for their classroom. This fact was almost unbelievable to my European friends when I later lived there on my own.
It goes beyond range anxiety. Currently while driving long distances, which I simply don't think twice about, I won't let my vehicle or it's support options if something happens, limit me.
IP,
modern day gypsy
No. of Recommendations: 8
The whole range anxiety thing is largely obviated at this point.
I think this rather misses what "range anxiety" actually is. Though that term isn't a great descriptor.
I live a mile or so from my office, and I also only have to make long trips a few times a year. But I would never consider an EV. To lift heavily from a post I made on the Fool, I can’t charge at home and can nearly never charge at work. I would have to be super conscientious about keeping that ‘tank’ topped off at third-party chargers in order to avoid an issue. And I don’t want to have to worry about that.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve looked down at the dash in the morning and only just then realized I was down to a quarter tank or so. That’s never a problem if you have an ICE car - that’s about 100 miles of “range” in my particular car, and it’s super fast to fill the tank if needs must. But if you lose track of your charging in an EV and you look down to see you’ve only got a quarter ‘tank,’ about 60 miles, then that can present more of an issue. Especially if you’ve got a schedule of dropping kids to school, hitting some meetings out of the office, making it back for a phone conference, and just don’t have the space in your day to stop for 20 minutes to refuel.
I don’t want the possibility of facing an unanticipated lengthy delay in my day if events (or even my own lack of attention) have led me into a situation where I start the morning without enough charge to get through the day. With an ICE, that’s no more than a few minutes delay - easy enough to fill in without being late to anything. With an EV, it could really cause a problem for me.
Similarly, if I'm driving from Miami to Orlando or Tampa for a long weekend (or whatever), I don't want to have to limit my accommodation choices to somewhere with a charger. I don't want to have to have to worry about finding an extra 20 minutes at some time (with wife and dog and two kids in the car) to fill up the tank. I don't want to worry about whether my need to charge lines up with everyone's need to use the bathroom or have lunch.
It's not that there's any real likelihood of me running out of electrons and being stranded on the side of the road if I'm diligent and plan. It's that it puts the burden on me to be diligent and plan. I don't want to have to have that extra thing to worry about. That's the anxiety - the feeling that you have to be sort of paying attention to your fuel levels in a way that's greater than with an ICE.
No. of Recommendations: 1
I don't want to have to have that extra thing to worry about.
Yes, exactly. If I HAD to, I could figure it out. I admit to being spoiled and don't WANT to. Since I am typically quite conscientious about environmental issues and STILL feel this way, I suspect I am not the only one who simply doesn't want to, with MANY feeling even more negative about it than I do.
Thanks for phrasing it so much better than I.
IP
No. of Recommendations: 5
Yes, exactly. If I HAD to, I could figure it out. I admit to being spoiled and don't WANT to.
Yep. And I think this is where looking at "range anxiety" in the context of a road trip misses the boat. IMHO, range anxiety isn't about long trips, about whether I can drive from Miami to Cleveland. That's easy to manage, and only happens a few times a year. Instead, range anxiety is about the daily/weekly effort to make sure you don't get too low on fuel in a way that screws up your day. Combine that with the much longer fill-up, and people stress.
If an average person drives 40 miles per day and has an ICE with a range of about 400 miles (which will vary from car to car, but is the average), then they've got 10 days' worth of fuel. They don't want to start a morning with only that days' fuel in the tank - they'll run out - so they'll fill up at least when they're down to two days left. Which is every eight days or so (which is also about the average, a weekly fill-up). But if they're in an EV with 300 miles of range or less, they get down to a low tank more frequently - every five or six days.
The lower range/smaller tank means you're getting to a "low fuel" situation more frequently. Combine that with the much, much longer time to add fuel, and you dramatically ramp up the chances of encountering a problem in your day-to-day. IMHO, that's the issue. Not planning out road trips where finding a twenty-minute stop in a five hour drive is relatively easy, but waking up in the morning and realizing you're short on electrons and you don't have an extra twenty minutes in that day's schedule to fix that.
Again, with meticulous planning and careful attention to charging (much easier if you can home charge), you can avoid that. But you have to be willing to take on that mental burden of managing your fuel levels in a way that you generally don't have to with ICE cars. And that's the range anxiety - not the 400-mile drive for your family vacation.
No. of Recommendations: 1
Executive Summary:
The U.S. has implemented rules through the Department of Commerce to ban connected vehicle technology (hardware and software) from China (and Russia) due to national security concerns, preventing surveillance and data risks, with phased implementation: software restrictions apply to model year 2027 vehicles, and hardware bans begin with model year 2030 (or 2029), effectively limiting Chinese tech in new cars by targeting connectivity systems, automated driving systems, and components from "countries of concern".
Key Aspects of the Ban:
Scope: Bans the sale or import of new connected vehicles and components (hardware/software) with links to China or Russia.
Focus Areas: Targets Vehicle Connectivity Systems (VCS) and Automated Driving Systems (ADS) software and hardware.
Rationale: Protects against espionage, data theft, and potential remote disabling, viewing extensive vehicle data as a security risk.
Phased Implementation:
Software: Prohibitions start with the 2027 model year.
Hardware: Prohibitions start with the 2030 model year (or January 1, 2029, for non-model year vehicles).
Enforcement: Violations can lead to significant civil and criminal penalties under the International Emergency Economic Powers Act (IEEPA).
Context & Impact:
This rule expands on existing tariffs and aims to stop China from circumventing trade restrictions by building vehicles in third countries like Mexico.
Automakers must certify compliance through annual declarations, detailing their supply chains for connected components.
China views the ban as protectionism, but the U.S. emphasizes national security, asserting the need to secure critical infrastructure and data.
BYD's latest EV battery tech focuses on ultra-fast charging with their "Super e-Platform" and enhanced Blade Battery systems, enabling 1MW charging for massive range additions in minutes, alongside structural innovation with Cell-to-Body (CTB) technology for increased safety and rigidity, all while continuing LFP advancements and potentially exploring solid-state batteries.
Key Technologies
Super e-Platform & Megawatt Charging:
Features 1500-volt architecture and silicon carbide chips for ultra-fast DC charging.
Allows for adding ~400 km of range in just 5 minutes, rivaling fuel fill-up times.
Deployed in new Han L and Tang L models, with expansion expected.
Blade Battery Enhancements:
Still based on safe LFP (lithium iron phosphate) chemistry, but optimized for density and speed.
Improved space utilization (over 50%) and longer lifecycle (5000+ cycles).
Extreme safety, passing rigorous tests (nail penetration, crushing, etc.) without fire.
Cell-to-Body (CTB) Technology:
Integrates Blade Batteries directly into the vehicle's structure, acting as a structural component.
Increases torsional rigidity (e.g., 40,500 N·m/° in the Seal) for better handling and safety.
Future Outlook (Solid-State):
BYD is testing solid-state batteries, potentially offering 1500 km range, but LFP remains a focus for cost-effective, high-performance options.
Impact
Addresses range anxiety with extremely fast charging.
Increases EV safety and structural integrity.
Maintains cost-effectiveness with advanced LFP designs.
China is rapidly advancing in autonomous driving, leveraging vast data, strong government support, and superior smart infrastructure (5G, V2X) for complex urban environments, leading to higher adoption and innovation, while the US benefits from established tech giants and varied state-level testing but faces fragmented regulations and slower data collection, with both countries competing fiercely in robotaxi services and Level 4 deployment despite different strategic approaches.
Key Strengths & Approaches
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/cyberpunk/imag...China:
Data & Infrastructure: Massive datasets from dense populations, extensive 5G/V2X rollout, and smart city infrastructure provide a significant edge for training AI and deploying AVs.
Government & Ecosystem: Centralized support enables rapid infrastructure development and regulatory rollout; major tech firms (Baidu, Alibaba, Huawei) are deeply involved.
Real-World Performance: Chinese AVs often outperform Tesla in complex Chinese city traffic due to better adaptation to local driving styles and conditions, notes this YouTube video and this article from the South China Morning Post.
Market Adoption: Higher penetration of advanced driver-assistance systems (ADAS) in new vehicles compared to the U.S., according to this YouTube video and this article from the South China Morning Post.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a4/Fla...United States:
Testing & Innovation: Home to pioneers like Waymo, with significant testing in varied conditions, benefiting from strong AI research and private sector investment.
Regulatory Landscape: Fragmented federal/state system (e.g., California's stringent rules) slows national deployment but allows for diverse testing environments, notes this YouTube video.
Data Access: Faces challenges with data privacy regulations, unlike China, hindering rapid algorithm training on massive datasets.
Key Differences
Driving Environment: China's crowded, dynamic urban centers (more pedestrians/cyclists) demand more robust, adaptable systems than many US testbeds, though this drives faster learning, says this YouTube video.
Technology Focus: China emphasizes C-V2X (Cellular Vehicle-to-Everything) for V2X communication, crucial for smart infrastructure integration, according to a study from Trafikanalys.
Strategic Advantage: China's holistic "smart city" approach, integrating AVs with infrastructure, gives it a long-term deployment advantage, notes this article from Automobility.
Jeff
No. of Recommendations: 7
The lower range/smaller tank means you're getting to a "low fuel" situation more frequently. Combine that with the much, much longer time to add fuel, and you dramatically ramp up the chances of encountering a problem in your day-to-day. IMHO, that's the issue. Not planning out road trips where finding a twenty-minute stop in a five hour drive is relatively easy, but waking up in the morning and realizing you're short on electrons and you don't have an extra twenty minutes in that day's schedule to fix that.
I've long said that EVs aren't practical for most people unless you can charge where you normally park. That's the whole key.
That said, what you have described is the opposite of what I've experienced in my decade as an EV owner. Reason is that if the battery is low, you simply charge it when you park the car. It is second nature. The result is you never have the "oh crap, I'm leaving the house, but I need to get gas on my way" moments. Which means you never have to stop off and get gas when you are running errands. It is an unexpected delight. On the other board, EV owners have described the same feeling.
Where range anxiety kicks in is the marginal trips, where you should have enough range to get there and back but it will be close. That when you start worrying about running the climate controls and such.
No. of Recommendations: 2
I've long said that EVs aren't practical for most people unless you can charge where you normally park. That's the whole key.
That said, what you have described is the opposite of what I've experienced in my decade as an EV owner. Reason is that if the battery is low, you simply charge it when you park the car. It is second nature. The result is you never have the "oh crap, I'm leaving the house, but I need to get gas on my way" moments. Which means you never have to stop off and get gas when you are running errands. It is an unexpected delight. On the other board, EV owners have described the same feeling.
Right. If you can charge where you park, and if you remember to charge every time (or most times) you park, then there's no issue.
But if you can't charge where you park, then things require a lot more thought. And even if you can charge where you park, you still need to make sure that you actually do that on a regular basis - which requires attention to fueling on a near-daily basis that ICE owners don't have to deal. For some people, that sort of thing comes very easy to them. I imagine most early-adopter EV drivers fall into that category. Me, I'd forget my head if it wasn't attached - I know that if I had an EV, even if I had the ability to charge at home (which I don't) I'd end up forgetting to do it far more often than I'd remember.
Where range anxiety kicks in is the marginal trips, where you should have enough range to get there and back but it will be close. That when you start worrying about running the climate controls and such.
Right - which is going to happen far more often in everyday scenarios than the long-distance road trips that often get mentioned as having easy solutions to range anxiety. Because EV's have smaller "tanks" than ICE's, you're going to spend more of your driving time closer to the bottom of the "tank" than you would in a gas car unless you're meticulous about near-daily charging.
No. of Recommendations: 5
But if you can't charge where you park, then things require a lot more thought. And even if you can charge where you park, you still need to make sure that you actually do that on a regular basis - which requires attention to fueling on a near-daily basis that ICE owners don't have to deal.
I understand, even agree with your logic in not thinking EVs are appropriate for you. But I have to say you are very, very over concerned about some of the issues, and Syke’s most recent upthread post is spot on. (Maybe read it again?)
For instance: I can charge in my garage. I rarely charge more than once a week, and while I still glance at the “fuel gauge” (there has to be a better term) it’s probably about the same as I did with a gas car. However, it is a huge convenience to be able to plug-in in my garage rather than drive to a filling station (while there are many, we frequented just two 99% of the time.)
Story time: I bought the EV because I loved the styling and was finally tired of my 1994 Infiniti, so I bit the bullet. Yes, I had *severe* range anxiety, which in the first six months decreased by 90%, and has continued to abate since. Which is not to say it is gone entirely; I am aware of the *inconvenience* of having to charge on the road compared to a gas nozzle, but it has mostly receded almost to the point of “air pressure in tires” or “windshield washer fluid” kind of thing.
I would just note that you keep saying “on a near daily basis” and “requires a lot more thought” and it isn’t like that. (OK, it’s a tiny bit like that - and in your case without the ability to charge at home it would be different.) But several EV owners have tried to disabuse you of the idea of “how hard it is to monitor” and haven’t convinced you yet. Trust me, we’ll keep trying, because we know - and you don’t.
[Note: the “range” issue, while overstated, is still real. We made sure we still had an ICE car when I got my EV. (2 actually, counting my beater van. Mrs. Goofy has a hybrid.) And I’m looking at a Christmas present gift of a “Sloth Encouter” that’s about 90 minutes away - which (round trip) is just at the range limit and it's rural, so there’s little opportunity to recharge. So there’s that.]
No. of Recommendations: 4
I would just note that you keep saying “on a near daily basis” and “requires a lot more thought” and it isn’t like that.
Agree. Ours is an Equinox EV, 300 or so mile range. Typical trip is less than 75 miles. We just plug it in when it's below 100 miles. That might be once or twice a week. It's very convenient. Plugging in takes a few seconds after pulling in the garage.
We wouldn't have an EV if we didn't have home charging. And we have several gas cars to choose for really long trips. Recently took two cars on a ski trip and didn't consider taking the EV into the snowy mountains. They have their use-cases.
No. of Recommendations: 0
Meanwhile, GM takes a second EV writeoff.
GM takes $6 billion hit as cost of backing away from EVs
General Motors on Thursday said it will lose another $6 billion as a result of its decision to pull back on electric cars.
It comes on top of a $1.6 billion charge it disclosed in October for changes to its EV plans.
Much of GM’s $6 billion charge against its earnings will go towards settling canceled contracts with parts suppliers. https://www.cnn.com/2026/01/08/business/gm-ev-cost...Steve
No. of Recommendations: 8
Meanwhile, GM takes a second EV writeoff.
Oh sure, with an administration hostile to EVs and CEOs looking at the next quarter instead of the next decade, not a surprise. This small window will be looked back on as “when Detroit became irrelevant.”\
It happens. We barely make steel anymore. Or TVs. Or microwaves. Or lots of things. Detroit, however, used to be a huge part of the economy, at one point accounting directly or indirectly (suppliers) for 1 in 5 jobs in the country.
Ah well, we can always make Caramel macchiatos and soybeans, I guess.
No. of Recommendations: 3
I would just note that you keep saying “on a near daily basis” and “requires a lot more thought” and it isn’t like that. (OK, it’s a tiny bit like that - and in your case without the ability to charge at home it would be different.) But several EV owners have tried to disabuse you of the idea of “how hard it is to monitor” and haven’t convinced you yet. Trust me, we’ll keep trying, because we know - and you don’t.
But...I can't charge at home. Or at work. Which means it's different for me than your experience. And (obviously from this quote) you acknowledge that. So I'm not sure I entirely understand your point.
I'm not disputing your experience, or those of other posters on this thread. But I am suggesting that maybe your experience isn't....universal? For example, if you're rarely charging more than once a week, I suspect you're not driving the 40+ miles per day that is what the average U.S. car is driven. And if you park in a garage, then your "plug in" operation is going to be sheltered from the weather and can be done without going outside even if you forgot to do it on the way in the house.
Which is fine! Lots of people have garages! And lots of people don't drive 40 miles per day. People who tick both those boxes are good candidates for EV's, and are probably already disproportionately representative among EV owners. Because they didn't face the same type of conditions that cause "range anxiety" in the rest of us (particularly those of us with kids).
The meat of Syke's post is:
Reason is that if the battery is low, you simply charge it when you park the car. It is second nature. The result is you never have the "oh crap, I'm leaving the house, but I need to get gas on my way" moments.
My point is that this only works if: i) you can charge it when you park the car; and ii) you always notice when the battery is low. But not everyone meets both those criteria. The first one, obviously - but also the second one. People sometimes run out of gas, or fail to notice that their tank is super low. And the simple solution to that is "if the fuel tank is low, you simply fill it when you pass a gas station" - the mirror to Syke's phrasing above. But sometimes, for some of us out here, we're not paying attention the way we should be.
I suspect (based on decades of interaction now) that you're not the sort of person that would fail to pay attention. Perhaps Syke as well. That's not who you guys are, so your experience with an EV fueling is very positive. But not everyone's like that. I'm the sort of person who (again) might lose their head if not attached, and my teenage daughter can't remember to fill up the tank to save her life. So I know that even if I had at-home charging, I would expect to have at least one - and perhaps many - instance where I get in the car in the morning to find I don't have enough charge to make my day happen.
No. of Recommendations: 5
Which means it's different for me than your experience.
Yes, which I acknowledged when I said “ I understand, even agree with your logic in not thinking EVs are appropriate for you.”
I was trying to help you correct your misapprehensions about certain things. Like:
But sometimes, for some of us out here, we're not paying attention the way we should be.
When my EV gets down to 25%, the dash screen is taken over by a LARGE MESSAGE which says (paraphrase)
“GETTING LOW ON BATTERY!
WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO ROUTE YOU TO A CHARGER?”
It is impossible to miss. If you dismiss that warning, it comes back up every few percent, and when you get below 10% there is another, even more urgent warning. This is seriously not an issue. I repeat: It’s IMPOSSIBLE to miss.
But I am suggesting that maybe your experience isn't....universal?
I’m quite aware. Indeed, I have argued against enthusiasts who think the country should go 100% electric by {insert date} because it’s impractical here. Apartment dwellers. Heck, condo owners in Boston park on the streets. Many houses don’t have garages, or have garages which are full of furniture or children’s toys, and some people won’t afford the installation of a charger (not truly necessary with a 110v extension cord, but speeds up the process), and so on.
I’m saying your situation is your situation and that’s fine, but you still have misapprehensions about EVs which I’m trying to correct. You do not have to charge “every day”, you can take “long trips” (I went TN to KY to WV to PA to NY to CT to MA and back last year to visit a dying friend (and then back home), and charging stations have only increased since then.)
Yes, it’s not as convenient as “gas stations” yet. Maybe never. Then again I had a learning curve to use a microwave properly and my first experiences with a pontoon boat were pretty wonky too, but I learned and got over it.
BTW, I drive about 30m per day on average. (I have 17k miles on the ev in 24 months). But then I have two cars: the EV and the van, so maybe it’s more. I get that I’m not “typical” and I’m not trying to force this on anyone, but I do think it behooves you to know that your experience isn’t typical either, and your worries are overblown and uninformed; not a personal criticism just a note worth considering.
No. of Recommendations: 2
It is impossible to miss. If you dismiss that warning, it comes back up every few percent, and when you get below 10% there is another, even more urgent warning. This is seriously not an issue. I repeat: It’s IMPOSSIBLE to miss.
I appreciate the information - and that's good to know. But if you've got a "tank" with less than 300 miles of actual range, getting that warning at 25% may not be good enough. If I end up having to cover a meeting up in Fort Lauderdale, or have a series of errands I need to run on a weekend, I can't wake up that morning and find myself with only 70-80 miles in the tank and needing a lengthy charge.
And I think you're underestimating what a teenager is actually able to completely miss, even when it's "IMPOSSIBLE to miss." Trust me - she's capable of ignoring things a LOT more visible (and audible!) than what you're describing.
I don't think we're disagreeing that much. If you have the ability to charge every night, you should be able to make sure you never run into a "short tank" situation the next day. It sounds like the vehicle will all-but-yell at you when you get to a quarter tank, so odds are you'll never wake up in the morning with less than a quarter tank. But because the tank is small, if you're someone who has days from time to time when you have to drive double the average (80 miles or more), you've still got to be on top of things a little bit in order to be certain not to have an issue.
I'd just prefer not to have that in my life. I mean, I can't charge at home - so EV's are a no-go right from jump. But even if I had home charging, it wouldn't be a viable option for me.
No. of Recommendations: 3
As I pointed out above, while Chinese technology is banned from use in US autos, there are options becoming available "globally" which address these issues:
BYD's latest EV battery tech focuses on ultra-fast charging with their "Super e-Platform" and enhanced Blade Battery systems, enabling 1MW charging for massive range additions in minutes, alongside structural innovation with Cell-to-Body (CTB) technology for increased safety and rigidity, all while continuing LFP advancements and potentially exploring solid-state batteries.
Key Technologies
Super e-Platform & Megawatt Charging:
Features 1500-volt architecture and silicon carbide chips for ultra-fast DC charging.
Allows for adding ~400 km of range in just 5 minutes, rivaling fuel fill-up times.
Deployed in new Han L and Tang L models, with expansion expected.
Blade Battery Enhancements:
Still based on safe LFP (lithium iron phosphate) chemistry, but optimized for density and speed.
Improved space utilization (over 50%) and longer lifecycle (5000+ cycles).
Extreme safety, passing rigorous tests (nail penetration, crushing, etc.) without fire.
Cell-to-Body (CTB) Technology:
Integrates Blade Batteries directly into the vehicle's structure, acting as a structural component.
Increases torsional rigidity (e.g., 40,500 N·m/° in the Seal) for better handling and safety.
Future Outlook (Solid-State):
BYD is testing solid-state batteries, potentially offering 1500 km range, but LFP remains a focus for cost-effective, high-performance options.
Impact
Addresses range anxiety with extremely fast charging.
Increases EV safety and structural integrity.
Maintains cost-effectiveness with advanced LFP designs.
Jeff
No. of Recommendations: 6
That's the anxiety - the feeling that you have to be sort of paying attention to your fuel levels in a way that's greater than with an ICE.
I don't know, in my EV I don't even have to pay attention to that part anymore. I tell the car where I am going, I press "START DRIVING" and it drives. If it needs to charge along the way, it'll pull off the road all by itself, it'll drive to the chargers, back into an open charger, and then ... well, I hate this part, I actually have to GET OUT OF THE CAR and plug it in! Then, I either go inside to use the bathroom, to stretch my legs, to get a coffee and/or a snack, or just sit in the car and watch a show. Then I have to exit the car again, unplug it, push the "START DRIVING" button again, and I am on my way to my destination. As far as I can recall, all of my stops for charging have been between 6 and 18 minutes. Once on the FL turnpike, we were in line at Dunkin waiting to pick up our coffees and hot chocolates and the car told me it was done charging (at 80%). I quickly bumped it up to 90 because I didn't want to be hit with idle charges (for sitting at the charger while not charging). When we finally got back to the car it was at 86% or so.
But I understand the not being able to charge at home. That is kind of a pain and I don't really recommend it. If you can't charge at home, an EV probably isn't for you. Partly because of cost, public DC fast charging is expensive, I only use it on road trips.
No. of Recommendations: 2
I don't know, in my EV I don't even have to pay attention to that part [fuel levels] anymore.
That sounds nice. I couldn't do that. On most days, I don't have the opportunity to take an unexpected 15-20 minute pit stop in the middle of my day if I need to refuel the car. That would create a significant problem for me if I didn't pay attention to fuel levels to make sure that didn't happen on any given day.
I literally cannot get to my office or the expressway or even the nearest major roads without passing a gas station, and I can do half a fill-up in two minutes or less. So even if I wake up in the morning to find that I've overlooked a fill-up and the gas light is on, I won't be late for anything. But the nearest fast charger is at least five minutes away (and out of the way), and would take 5-10 minutes to add 60-80 miles (it's fast at low charge, but still takes longer than a gas pump). That can wreck my day. So even if I could charge at home, I would have to keep a real close eye on the charge level to make sure I never hit that warning light - even if the warning came at a quarter tank.
That's part of why I think the focus on long-distance road trips as the source of range anxiety is a bit off. Because on a long-distance road trip, you usually do have a ton of flexibility - and lots of places in your schedule you can fit a 15-20 minute stop into, even if it's unexpected. But if the range bites you in the middle of an ordinary day that's scheduled with stuff you have to be on time for, it presents a different problem than with an ICE car.
No. of Recommendations: 4
On most days, I don't have the opportunity to take an unexpected 15-20 minute pit stop in the middle of my day if I need to refuel the car.
I've never once had to do that in nearly 5 years of EV ownership (we are up to 3 EVs now in our family). Even for a few weeks when I was in a place without a home charger I didn't have to do it (unexpected and in middle of my day). That's because while I mostly optimize on efficiency (after all, I am engineer), I also optimize on price, so rather than running somewhere during the day ("peak") to charge, I would wait till nighttime to charge ("off peak"). Not only is it less expensive to charge at night, there are also fewer people charging, and less traffic, that's a win-win-win to me. About 2 or 3 years ago, for about a month and a half, a nearby supercharger was charging 11 cents/kWh, so once a week I would go there and charge for about 15 minutes, because 11 cents/kWh is less than the 15 cents/kWh that I pay at home! 😃
I assume you live in a condo or something similar to a condo. Soon, many condos will have chargers in their parking lots. I've recently looked at a bunch of condos, mostly newly constructed ones, or about to begin construction, and many of them mention "preparation for chargers in parking area".
No. of Recommendations: 5
I assume you live in a condo or something similar to a condo. Soon, many condos will have chargers in their parking lots. I've recently looked at a bunch of condos, mostly newly constructed ones, or about to begin construction, and many of them mention "preparation for chargers in parking area".
I owned a condo in Boston, an old hotel which was converted in 1905 (!) and reconverted in the 1950s. Of the 30 units, I was one of 12 units which had a parking space out back. In order to install a charger I would have had to tear up the parking lot, trench electric cables, and install a charger at the cost of (at least) $10,000. - Plus get the approval of the condo board, which was reluctant to make any sort of change, even at owners’ expense to the exterior of the building.
I think you are unlikely to see conversions of older buildings any time soon.
They did it in Norway, which had famously incentivized apartment and condo buildings with cash grants to accomplish the task, but the US will never go that far, even with a new, more progressive administration in place. I suspect it will be *decades* before we see the kind of electrification we hear about in other countries - which doesn’t mean we shouldn’t pursue it, just that it can’t/won’t happen here - unless and until there is a serious oil crisis reminiscent of the 1970s or something.
