Post New

"Five years in prison for tripping and falling against officers?" questioned Proud Boy Piglet? "He did fall multiple times." said Proud Boy Pooh. "How many years per fall?" questioned Eeyore. "Some picnic," they all thought. "Did he come in over the southern border?" asked Roo.

<snip> At 6 feet 6 inches and nearly 300 pounds, the force of Kenneth J. Bonawitz launching himself through the air and slamming his forearms into the throats of two police officers standing below him during the Jan. 6 Capitol riot must have been enormous. One officer suffered back injuries such that he was forced to retire in permanent pain.

Bonawitz, 58, wasn’t done. As other officers rushed in, they spotted an eight-inch hunting knife on Bonawitz’s hip and seized it from him. But the police were too overwhelmed to arrest Bonawitz and returned him to the crowd on the Capitol’s West Terrace, where he proceeded to fight with more officers, including putting one officer in a chokehold and lifting her off the ground. He ultimately assaulted six officers before retreating after being hit with chemical spray. Prosecutors called him “one of the most violent Jan. 6 rioters” and said his attacks “were barbaric and left his victims with lasting physical, emotional and psychological injuries.”

Prosecutors asked U.S. District Judge Jia M. Cobb to sentence Bonawitz, a member of the Proud Boys, a far-right group with a history of violence, to nearly six years in prison, above the average sentence of slightly less than four years for assaulting police on Jan. 6.

Cobb imposed a sentence of five years, calling Bonawitz’s actions “really inexplicable to me.” She addressed the view held by some that defendants such as Bonawitz are political prisoners. “I don’t care about your political beliefs,” the judge said. “It’s your actions that you’re facing sentencing for.” <snip>

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2024/01/17...

returned him to the crowd on the Capitol’s West Terrace, where he proceeded to fight with more officers, including putting one officer in a chokehold and lifting her off the ground. He ultimately assaulted six officers before retreating after being hit with chemical spray. - Lapsody

-------------

No doubt that guy deserves having the book thrown at him. That doesn't justify harsh treatment for 60 year old tourists from Poughkeepsie just walking through the halls.

BHM: That doesn't justify harsh treatment for 60 year old tourists from Poughkeepsie just walking through the halls.

Do you have an actual case to prove your point? The data say differently:

The Intercept’s analysis sharply contradicts that right-wing narrative. In many cases, judges have rejected prosecutors’ requests for prison time, often reducing defendants’ sentences to home detention or probation. Defendants have been sentenced to standard prison terms in only 429 out of 719 cases, or 60 percent. Another 31 defendants were sentenced to intermittent incarceration, meaning they only had to serve time on nights or weekends. Home detention was given instead of prison in 101 cases, while defendants in 135 cases got probation.

Interestingly, Biden appointed judges handed down the most lenient sentences, closely followed by Bush judges. Trump judges handed down the harshest sentences.

https://theintercept.com/2024/01/05/january-6-case...

Jan 5 ABC News

In the three years since the Jan. 6, 2021, assault on the U.S. Capitol, federal prosecutors have charged more than 1,265 defendants across nearly all 50 states and D.C. and secured sentences of incarceration for more than 460 people, according to newly released numbers from the U.S. Attorney's Office in D.C.

************************

Do you have an actual case to prove your point? The data say differently:

"The Intercept’s analysis sharply contradicts that right-wing narrative. In many cases, judges have rejected prosecutors’ requests for prison time, often reducing defendants’ sentences to home detention or probation. Defendants have been sentenced to standard prison terms in only 429 out of 719 cases.." = CO

No I don't have a specific case. But, aha, there are over 500 cases not accounted for in your stats.

And I will add if you are a sixty year old retired school teacher from Poughkeepsie, who uses a cane to get around, and were just trundling through the halls in the crowd not particularly doing anything, and you get tracked down by the FBI and arrested, the harsh treatment starts right there while you stress out for six months before charges are dropped. These may be the missing 500 cases.

Anyway, as long as we agree that Jan 6 would be the weakest insurrection in the history of mankind if we allow it to be treated as such.

his attacks “were barbaric and left his victims with lasting physical, emotional and psychological injuries.”


Trump's 'very fine' brown shirts.

And these are the criminals that the MAGA crowd calls martyrs and heroes. Hell NO!

BHM: No I don't have a specific case. But, aha, there are over 500 cases not accounted for in your stats.


Aha, not all cases have been adjudicated yet. Hell, they're still identifying and arresting people.

BHM: And I will add if you are a sixty year old retired school teacher from Poughkeepsie, who uses a cane to get around, and were just trundling through the halls in the crowd not particularly doing anything, and you get tracked down by the FBI and arrested, the harsh treatment starts right there while you stress out for six months before charges are dropped. These may be the missing 500 cases.

You seem to believe much that isn't true. And who is this "sixty year old retired school teacher from Poughkeepsie, who uses a cane to get around" you keep babbling about anyway? Is this some figment of your imagination or do you have a link to a real person and a real indictment?

BHM: Anyway, as long as we agree that Jan 6 would be the weakest insurrection in the history of mankind if we allow it to be treated as such.

No, we do not agree.

Do you agree that you support a Hitler-quoting, top secret documents stealing, insurrection inciting, fake electoral vote peddling, Constitution hating, defaming and defrauding rapist?

hBM: Anyway, as long as we agree that Jan 6 would be the weakest insurrection in the history of mankind if we allow it to be treated as such.

I don't think so. Several look just as weak just in our history. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rebellions_i...

HairyMike: "Anyway, as long as we agree that Jan 6 would be the weakest insurrection in the history of mankind if we allow it to be treated as such."

Mike, how many people died or were injured as a result of the "weakest insurrection in the history of mankind"?

Here are the numbers...

"Within 36 hours of the event, five people had died. Many people were injured, including 174 police officers.
Four officers who responded to the attack died by suicide within seven months. As of July 7, 2022, monetary damages caused by attackers exceeded $2.7 million."

"More than 1,200 persons have been charged with federal crimes arising from the attack. As of December 2023, 728 defendants had pleaded guilty, while another 166 defendants had been convicted at trial; a total of 745 defendants have been sentenced. A significant number of participants in the attack were linked to far-right extremist groups or conspiratorial movements, including the Oath Keepers, Proud Boys, and Three Percenters."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_6_United_Sta...

Do you agree that you support a Hitler-quoting, top secret documents stealing, insurrection inciting, fake electoral vote peddling, Constitution hating, defaming and defrauding rapist? - CO

-----------------

If you are referring to Trump. then Yes.

For what it's worth, if i was empowered to simply anoint one as President it would have been Ramaswamy - a Washington outsider, smart, articulate, and as he says, "young legs".

>>hBM: Anyway, as long as we agree that Jan 6 would be the weakest insurrection in the history of mankind if we allow it to be treated as such.<<

I don't think so. Several look just as weak just in our history. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rebellions_i... - sodYLap</I?

------------------

Nice list. However I don't think we were on the verge of losing our democracy with rebellions such as prison riots, Wounded Knee, or the event known as "Occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge".

Compared to real insurrections intended to seize control of government, it is just lame. The FBI has confirmed that no firearms were found amongst the visitors. There were people who carried bear spray and one guy had a hunting knife, they ere armed but not carrying fire arms as some media reported. Who takes over a country without a gun?

hBM: Anyway, as long as we agree that Jan 6 would be the weakest insurrection in the history of mankind if we allow it to be treated as such.

Yeh, no big deal. The picnicers wanted to hang Mike Pence and, with the help of the corrupt GOP House members, would have happily overturned the legitimate election results to install dictator Trump as President for Life

And that fact that they beat up LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS in their attempt to carry out the orders from orange jesus..NO BIG DEAL. Sorry but if that is what you believe...you're nuts.

And that fact that they beat up LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS in their attempt to carry out the orders from orange jesus..NO BIG DEAL. Sorry but if that is what you believe...you're nuts. - ges

-------------------------

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said anything close to "No Big Deal".

I have been consistently saying that we were nowhere close to "losing our democracy" as the dems continue to hype. Sorry but if that is what you believe...you're nuts.

BHM: we were nowhere close to "losing our democracy" as the dems continue to hype.

I have never heard that hype. What I have heard (and has been verified) is there was a concerted and deliberate conspiracy afoot to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power and substitute alternate slates of electors in an attempt for Trump to remain in power. This had little chance of success even if Mike Pence cooperated, alternate slates of electors were presented, etc. It wasn't even a Hail Mary. But the chaos that would have ensued would've severely damaged our democracy, if it recovered. This conspiracy was orchestrated at the behest of Trump. It is considered a self coup attempt, and there were insurrectionist elements present at the Jan 6 "picnic". Make no mistake, our democracy was hurt and damaged by Jan 6.

Because the wheels take so long to turn, justice will probably be meted out after Trump loses the election. We are committed to defeating you in the voting booth.

>>BHM: we were nowhere close to "losing our democracy" as the dems continue to hype.<<

I have never heard that hype - Lapsody

------------------------------

Biden hypes "Saving our democracy" is damn near every campaign speech. I think this really is the current theme of his campaign since Bidenomics didn't catch on.

Article below is Garland saying it explicitly.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/top-law-enforcemen...

AG Garland testifies Jan. 6 insurrection was 'most dangerous threat to our democracy'
.
.
... more at link

Mike, are you obtuse? "close to "losing our democracy" as you stated is very different from "he has not seen a more dangerous threat to democracy than the "invasion" of the Capitol on Jan. 6, which he called in written testimony a "heinous attack" and "intolerable assault."

Close to losing our democracy implies a "but for X", we would have lost our democracy. I haven't seen that. I do think this may have started a downhill slide. Make no mistake, when Garland says that, he means it,and it is. Jan 6 is a heinous attack on our democracy perpetrated by the right wing. It is INTOLERABLE. The right wing still is the most dangerous threat to our democracy. The right wing needs to be told that and you need to recognize that.

lose to losing our democracy implies a "but for X", we would have lost our democracy. I haven't seen that. - Lapsody

==============================

Better? It is not a big deal with me, it is an effective political strategy and it is not at all surprising that this card is being played.

https://www.npr.org/2022/06/08/1102909009/jan-6-co...

Jan. 6 committee Chair Bennie Thompson says the U.S. came close to losing democracy
.
.
... more at link

BHM: we were nowhere close to "losing our democracy" as the dems continue to hype.

Give Trump another chance and we will be.

we were nowhere close to "losing our democracy" as the dems continue to hype........Jan. 6 committee Chair Bennie Thompson says the U.S. came close to losing democracy

Yay! You found one!

Now just tweak that allegation and we're all kumbayah again.

"we were nowhere close to "losing our democracy" as a dem hyped"

But that's your perspective as a conspiracy-prone person influenced by conspiracy promoting right wing media.

Had you been in the Capital, rushed by security to a -hopefully- safe location before a mob of angry lunatics got to you, or if you were a cop getting your brains bashed by that mob, your perception would reflect what you had experienced.

Had you been in the Capital, rushed by security to a -hopefully- safe location before a mob of angry lunatics got to you, or if you were a cop getting your brains bashed by that mob, your perception would reflect what you had experienced. - sano

=================

Bad!!! Yes

Dangerous: Yes

Losing our democracy??? Not so much.

<Had you been in the Capital, rushed by security to a -hopefully- safe location before a mob of angry lunatics got to you, or if you were a cop getting your brains bashed by that mob, your perception would reflect what you had experienced.>

Indeed. Here's what D.C. Police Officer Daniel Hodges, who lived through this tragedy had to say,
"If it wasn't my job, I would have done that for free. It was absolutely my pleasure to crush a white nationalist insurrection.
And we'll do it as many times as it takes." ~D.C. Police Officer Daniel Hodges

"a white nationalist insurrection."

Back the Blue! Amirite Mike?

And if any of these lefties had lived in a city that allowed Antifa to take over several city blocks, had roads randomly shut down every day with citizens trapped in their vehicles, had violent and destructive protesters come through their neighborhoods day after day...


...they'd understand the little monster they've nurtured and created over time. And never vote liberal again.

Losing our democracy??? Not so much.

Your opinion is a manifestation of your bias; that there what happened inside the Capital Building is all that matters.

Again, your perception is that of a person who was not there and ignores the peripheral activity of Trump's right wing militant supporters.

You choose to pretend there were no militias with weapons stashes nearby, that that was part of a failed threat to the peaceful transfer of office that day.

https://apnews.com/article/capitol-siege-florida-v...

Taking the stand in the seditious conspiracy case against Oath Keepers founder Stewart Rhodes and four associates, Terry Cummings showed jurors an AR-15 firearm and an orange box for ammunition that he contributed to the so-called quick reaction force the Oath Keepers had staged at the hotel outside of Washington in case they needed weapons.

“I had not seen that many weapons in one location since I was in the military,” said Cummings, a veteran who joined the Oath Keepers in Florida in 2020.

... Oath Keeper, John Zimmerman, told jurors that the Oath Keepers stashed at least a dozen rifles and several handguns in his van parked at Arlington National Cemetery to serve as the quick reaction force on that occasion.

.....Meggs and the Florida Oath Keepers on Jan. 5 brought gun boxes, rifle cases and suitcases filled with ammunition to the Virginia hotel that served as the home for the quick reaction force. Another team from Arizona brought weapons, ammunition, and supplies to last 30 days, according to court papers. A team from North Carolina had rifles in a vehicle parked in the hotel lot"

https://apnews.com/article/capitol-siege-florida-v...

"...several city blocks, had roads randomly shut down every day with citizens trapped in their vehicles, had violent and destructive protesters come through their neighborhoods day after day..."

Yada yada yada.

Protests and riots are absolutely irrelevant to the events of January 6; the attempted insurrection to prevent the peaceful transfer of the Office of the Presidency of the USA.

Dope1:And if any of these lefties had lived in a city that allowed Antifa to take over several city blocks, had roads randomly shut down every day with citizens trapped in their vehicles, had violent and destructive protesters come through their neighborhoods day after day...

You talking about Seattle? Chaz?

The space has both a protest and street fair vibe, with a small garden, medic station, smoking area, and a “No Cop Co-op”, where people can get supplies and food at no cost. There’s also a trio of shrine-like areas filled with candles, flowers and images of George Floyd and many others who have been killed by police.

But in a tweet, Donald Trump described the protesters as “Domestic Terrorists” who “have taken over Seattle, run by Radical Left Democrats, of course. LAW & ORDER!

Speeches, concerts, gardens, and movie nights "where the vast majority of people wear masks to protect each other against coronavirus."

Frightening, terrifying, indeed.

What a snowflake.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/11/ch...

Better? It is not a big deal with me, it is an effective political strategy and it is not at all surprising that this card is being played.

https://www.npr.org/2022/06/08/1102909009/jan-6-co...

Jan. 6 committee Chair Bennie Thompson says the U.S. came close to losing democracy

Much better, Thanks. I have sensed - not from pundits, etc., - but from individuals - that they believe that if Mike Pence had gone along with the crime and paused for the substitute electoral slates, that the resulting delay and chaos would've altered our government to where elections become hazardous and thoroughly disputed. I don't think we're close to that - yet.

It is very much am effective political strategy, but it also has a lot of truth to it. Doesn't it Mike?



<smip>For Thompson, preserving democracy today means telling the full story of the attack on the Capitol and ensuring its moment in history is one that Americans never forget.

"I have learned a lot about how perilously close we came on January 6 to losing this democracy as a lot of us have come to know and love it."<snip>

For Thompson, preserving democracy today means telling the full story of the attack on the Capitol and ensuring its moment in history is one that Americans never forget.

LOL. That must be why he and his partisan committee

*WIthheld thousands of hours of videotape of 1/6
*Destroyed loads of notes and didn't preserve their records

He's full of it. So was that entire committee.

Dope: And if any of these lefties had lived in a city that allowed Antifa to take over several city blocks,

You mean an imaginary city where and imaginary Antifa takes over several city blocks? Antifa is not in the business of taking over several city blocks kid. They don't do that. You've been reading too many propaganda pamphlets. Dope, you've gone down a rabbit hole and you need to find your way back out.

2018 report
https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF1...

Anarchist violent extremists (European view)

US government agencies frequently use 'anarchist violent extremism' as a blanket term for both
anarchist and left-wing violent extremism. Anarchist violent extremists are thus defined as 'DVEs
who oppose all forms of capitalism, corporate globalisation, and governing institutions, which are
perceived as harmful to society'.19 These individuals and groups are often – and in many cases
wrongly – associated with Antifa, a moniker that is nowadays commonly used in US debates over
domestic counter-terrorism (see the box below).

Anarchist violent extremists are organized in small cells, and unlike other DVE groups, they have no
hierarchy or leadership structures. They typically target property rather than humans, which may
explain the smaller number of victims compared to some other forms of extremism. Their attacks
have often happened around major events (e.g. economic and financial summits). However, there
have recently been multiple instances of mass-casualty attack planning within this group. Moreover,
given the societal and political factors at play, such as the intensifying polarisation of US society,
anarchist violent extremists may be increasingly likely to perpetrate such attacks in the future.20
Additionally, the growing violence witnessed at demonstrations between extremists from opposing
sides, has resulted in a 'security dilemma', where attempts by one side to improve its own security
threaten the security of others, thereby provoking further escalation.21 As militias and white
supremacist groups have become increasingly active, anarchist violent extremists may feel bound
to display a more aggressive behaviour and to step up their acts of violence, thus provoking the
other parties to do the same.

Antifa

Antifa – shorthand for anti-fascist – is a decentralised network of loosely affiliated anti-fascist groups and
individuals. The FBI Director Christopher Wray has described Antifa as more of an ideology or a movement
than an organisation. The movement traces its origins to the resistance against nascent fascism in post-
World War I Europe; in the US, it is also deeply rooted in the struggle against racist violence.
Antifa's core purpose is to counter the activities of neo-Nazis, white supremacists and other groups the
movement's adherents consider as fascist. In this context, Antifa activists do not cooperate with law
enforcement, as they question the government's ability to properly investigate and prosecute crimes
committed by fascists.
Antifa activities are in part non-violent and include holding protests and lobbying organisations hosting
speakers or rallies for causes Antifa believes to be of a racist or a fascist nature. In this way, Antifa denies
fascists a public platform. The movement adherents occasionally publicise private information about their
perceived enemies (known as doxing). They primarily use violence during clashes with their opponents at
demonstrations, with one fatal incident attributed to them since 1994 (In 2020, a self-described anti-fascist
killed a member of a far-right group during a protest in Portland, Oregon).

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE...(2023)754561_EN.pdf

So I've given you some starters to help you climb out of that rabbit hole.

Dope, you still have not given a direct response to the fact that Jan 6 was the most violent heinous attack on democracy in both yours and my lifetimes.

You mean an imaginary city where and imaginary Antifa takes over several city blocks?

Lulz.
You really do live in a bubble. Does everything you read come only from the most heavily curated left wing sources?

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/7/2/2...

I'm starting to feel bad for you.

Dope, you still have not given a direct response to the fact that Jan 6 was the most violent heinous attack on democracy in both yours and my lifetimes.

Because all it was was a protest that turned into a riot.
If you swallow the line that "our democracy was in peril"...then you don't understand a damn thing about our country.

And if that's true, I can't help you.

Dope, you still have not given a direct response to the fact that Jan 6 was the most violent heinous attack on democracy in both yours and my lifetimes. - Lapsody

--------------

Depends on what constitutes a genuine threat to our democracy. Those J6 protesters had zero chance however when I think do of things that concern me that could destroy our democracy, instead of any particular act of violence, my thoughts go more toward things like

- loss of confidence in elections
- censorship
- education of the next generation
- climate change killing us all

- loss of confidence in elections
- censorship
- education of the next generation
- climate change killing us all

Anybody who says "our democracy is in jeopardy" but then turns around and wants private companies like Google and Facebook to censor political opponents of the democrat party is a kissing cousin of Benito Mussolini from an ideological point of view. Classical 1920's Fascism was a marriage of overwhelming state power that also leveraged corporations as partners.

Today's democrats are all about leveraging woke companies to do their bidding...just like old Benito did. BTW, prior to becoming the world's first fascist dictator Mussolini was one of Italy's leading...socialist writers.

.....Meggs and the Florida Oath Keepers on Jan. 5 brought gun boxes, rifle cases and suitcases filled with ammunition to the Virginia hotel that served as the home for the quick reaction force. Another team from Arizona brought weapons, ammunition, and supplies to last 30 days, according to court papers. A team from North Carolina had rifles in a vehicle parked in the hotel lot"

I could have been so much worse.

Anybody who says "our democracy is in jeopardy" but then turns around and wants private companies like Google and Facebook to censor political opponents of the democrat party

STRAWMAN ALERT

"It could have been so much worse.

Clearly many of those insurrectionists though General Trump would don his best uniform, saddle up a white stallion, and lead them good christian soldiers to armed victory.

A sentient being, otoh, knows that he's just a cowardly rapist; his father's disappointment; a family reject sent to military academy; a keyboard warrior who hides in his chambers watching life happen on TV.

All that ordnance, all those gravy seals, all armed up and nowhere to go.

>>.....Meggs and the Florida Oath Keepers on Jan. 5 brought gun boxes, rifle cases and suitcases filled with ammunition to the Virginia hotel that served as the home for the quick reaction force. Another team from Arizona brought weapons, ammunition, and supplies to last 30 days, according to court papers. A team from North Carolina had rifles in a vehicle parked in the hotel lot"<<

I could have been so much worse. - ges

---------------------

Yikes. It could have been a lot worse if these nutjobs actually brought that firepower to the capitol, perhaps 100's killed, hostages, snipers and seal team 6 eventually take down the leaders, FBI mops up.

Even with all that, these murderous nutjobs would still not be an actual threat to our democracy. Jeez, do these guys have superpowers or something? Without a carefully curated and sizeable band of co-conspirators and allies coordinated throughout the military and DOJ, this effort was guaranteed to fail. What is so hard to understand about that?

Yikes. It could have been a lot worse if these nutjobs actually brought that firepower to the capitol, perhaps 100's killed, hostages, snipers and seal team 6 eventually take down the leaders, FBI mops up.

Do these people even read what they type?

If the Proud Boys had all these guns and their intent was to violently overthrow the government, why’d they leave it all at the hotel?


Mind blowingly dumb, these bits of “evidence” they cite.

"..this effort was guaranteed to fail.What is so hard to understand about that? "

Now you're making guarantees? Awesome!

Seems like unless Trump's cult actually perforated the halls of congress with assault weapons they get a pass?

Thank goodness multiple juries have more common sense than you and jailed these fools in service to an orange rapist.

>>"..this effort was guaranteed to fail.What is so hard to understand about that? ">>

Now you're making guarantees? Awesome!

Seems like unless Trump's cult actually perforated the halls of congress with assault weapons they get a pass?

Thank goodness multiple juries have more common sense than you and jailed these fools in service to an orange rapist. - sano

----------------

Who said anything about giving them a pass? Not me.

What I have been mocking, consistently, is the liberal fantasy about our democracy being at risk that day.

If the Proud Boys had all these guns and their intent was to violently overthrow the government, why’d they leave it all at the hotel?

Bone up, kiddo. The orange rapist's convicted cultists are 'Oathkeepers,' as stupid, cowardly and inept as the orange rapist himself.

Why? C'mon man, this ain't rocket science.

Why? Because they are f*ckin' gravy seals.


https://www.reuters.com/legal/oath-keeper-shows-ju...

https://www.wsj.com/articles/oath-keepers-cached-w...

"..... Defendant Bennie Parker had waited outside the Capitol, where he explained to a foreign journalist that the riot was the result of American anger over the “stolen” election and ominously warned that “it will come to a civil war” and that many Americans were “willing to take up arms.” Bennie and Sandra Parker were among those Americans, having brought their firearms from Ohio for the events of January 6 at the direction of Ohio Oath Keepers leader Jessica Watkins

Connie Meggs and her husband, Kelly Meggs, traveled from Florida to a hotel in Arlington, Virginia, with several weapons that were later deposited at the hotel.

On January 6th, Oath Keepers leader Elmer Stewart Rhodes III, who was convicted in an earlier trial of seditious conspiracy and related charges, sent a message on an encrypted group chat announcing that Vice President Michael R. Pence would not intercede to stop Congress' certification of the electoral college vote, and so "patriots" were taking matters into their own hands. Moments later, a group of Oath Keepers, including these five defendants, began their march toward the Capitol."

https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/four-members-oa...

What I have been mocking, consistently, is the liberal fantasy about our democracy being at risk that day.

You're playing off strawmen of the orange cult's making; perhaps your greatest achievement.

Who said anything about giving them a pass? Not me.

We, unlike they, believe in punishing rioters.
How do we know they don't believe in that? Because if they did the guy you replied to and the people he follows intellectually would have been upset over 2 years, billions of dollars and dozens dead during all the BLM and Antifa riots.

But instead...they all chant that Antifa doesn't exist. So in terms of listening to these people on the subject of law and order...yeah...no.

Dope1: How do we know they don't believe in that? Because if they did the guy you replied to and the people he follows intellectually would have been upset over 2 years, billions of dollars and dozens dead during all the BLM and Antifa riots.

You mean guys like Kyle Rittenhouse, 'Umbrella Man' and Ivan Harrison Hunter, the Texas rightwing extremist who set fire to the Minneapolis police station with Molotov cocktails before shooting 13 rounds at the building?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/23/texa...

BHM: What I have been mocking, consistently, is the liberal fantasy about our democracy being at risk that day.

And I think you mock something you don't understand. Democracies have no guarantee of staying in existence. So let's paint a scenario, and I step outside of my area of knowledge to do so.

Mike Pence adopts strongly that the bogus electoral slates can be substituted. When Congress reconvenes to finish, he begins to accept the bogus electoral slates. Who would it be? Nancy Pelosi objects, stops the count, and arguments ensue. A substitute is found for Mike Pence, and the count starts again without the bogus slates. The propaganda drums starts up that the election was stolen all over again and trust in all institutions plunges. By the time the Supreme Court decides in favor of the new count, several states have sent letters of intent to secede to Congress. The country is in chaos. Shots fired.

Or.

Crowd breaks through early into the chamber, shots fired, zip tie guys actually get a couple of Congress critters, and hold them hostage. Mike Pence is brutalized, but lives. After a couple of day stand off everyone surrenders, the count is restarted, but lots of objections because of the two day delay. MAGA believes even more strongly that the election was stolen, the zip tie guys are heroes, and that the count is illegitimate because of the delay and refuses to recognize Biden as President. Chaos.

There were insurrectionist elements present on Jan 6. Democracy doesn't have to end on Jan 6., for that day to be seen historically as a pivot point that ended with the US losing its democracy.

Now I happen to believe we are recovering from this, but to recover a larger chunk of the country has to become pro democracy and put our democracy before their party or Trump.

Dope: We, unlike they, believe in punishing rioters.

No. When the Boogaloo Boys killed the two police to accelerate a race war - definitely punish them. And if you can ID the person tossing molotovs = punish them. And setting fire to business? ID and punish away. Just general pictures of them in the streets? Not sure what we do there. We definitely want to punish the guys driving cars into the mob, but I don't see any prosecution there, just Charlottesville. Just don 't selectively punish blacks and let white boys go free as seems to happen.

How do we know they don't believe in that? Because if they did the guy you replied to and the people he follows intellectually would have been upset over 2 years, billions of dollars and dozens dead during all the BLM and Antifa riots.

The vast bulk of BLM protests were peaceful. Guardian published stats on it. Lotsa white boys driving cars int em it seems though. I think the only place I read where Antifa might have used property damage as a tactic was Portland - punish away.

<i<>But instead...they all chant that Antifa doesn't exist. So in terms of listening to these people on the subject of law and order...yeah...no</i<>

Straw man, Antifa became Trumps whipping boy, it exists, but the one in your mind is imaginarily out taking over sections of cities and burning cities to the ground.

Dope: Because all it (Jan6) was was a protest that turned into a riot.
If you swallow the line that "our democracy was in peril"...then you don't understand a damn thing about our country.

See? It never was a protest - it was a planned disruption of the peaceful transition of power. Here's the rub, if you would admit that there were insurrectionist elements in the crowd that deliberately and violently went into the capital building and that they had the intent of disrupting the count and the peaceful transition of power, I wouldn't think that there is much peril to our democracy. But as long as you keep saying that it was a protest that turned into a riot, and there was no danger to our democracy, I'll continue to think that the anti-democratic forces in our country are a danger that needs to be extinguished.

Trump is a fascist, so of course he hates antifa.

And I agree, punish any rioters, those who harms others, or those who engage in property damage. Regardless of skin color or political leaning. Or position/influence. I think very few on the left would say otherwise.

But as long as you keep saying that it was a protest that turned into a riot, and there was no danger to our democracy, I'll continue to think that the anti-democratic forces in our country are a danger that needs to be extinguished.

Well articulated. I totally agree. As long as many on the right see it as a picnic or protest, or anything other than what it was, our democracy is in jeopardy. Democracy depends on a populace that isn't living in a fantasy.

History is replete with examples of people reinterpreting events, sanitizing or denying them. The results are seldom good. Orwell's dystopia relied heavily on that.

What is disingenuous is Dope's not admitting/acknowledging what his link revealed; a lot of the violence was the norm before the CHOP city. It subsided for a bit then resumed.
ALso, many of the deaths during the protests were the result of right wing extremists.
That was confirmed during the Oakland protests when the killers of cops in Oaklnad and StaCruz were perped by a team of right wing extremists...air force guys, iirc.
The dude sees antifa under his bed.

The vast bulk of BLM protests were peaceful

Hahahahahaha. Fiery but mostly peaceful.

Antifa became Trumps whipping boy, it exists, but the one in your mind is imaginarily out taking over sections of cities and burning cities to the ground.

Another lib who doesn’t have to live in a blue area.

"What I have been mocking, consistently, is the liberal fantasy about our democracy being at risk that day."

There is nothing funnier than laughing at people who think they are mocking others but are really just playing the ignorant fool themselves.

However, it isn't really that funny considering how serious the subject is.

In order to think democracy wasn't at risk that day a person would have to willfully ignore a whole bunch of inconvenient facts. Willful ignorance may work when talking to other members of the Cult who also want to ignore facts they find inconvenient, but it doesn't work with non-cultists.

Besides, Liz Cheney, Adam Kinzinger, Mitt Romney, Micheal Luttig, Joe Walsh, Lisa Murkowski, Jim Mathis, Rex Tillerson, John Kelly, Mark Esper, John Bolton, Dick Cheney, Mike Pence, and a whole host of other people that range from moderately conservative to very conservative have all said similar things about January 6th. Only an idiot would think any of them liberal.

The difference of course is that they are not members of the Willful Ignorance Cult.

Just try and explain the "Mike Pence didn't have the courage..." tweet Donald Trump sent out on January 6th.

That clearly shows that Donald Trump was looking for a different way other than democracy to redo a legal and fair election he convincingly lost.

If the fact that the sitting president of the United States trying to undermine the results of an election, doesn't make a person worried about democracy then that person is definitely a member of the Willful Ignorance Cult.

"Do these people even read what they type?"

Just because you cannot grasp something simple does not mean the fault lies with others. Take responsibility of your own failures.

"If the Proud Boys had all these guns and their intent was to violently overthrow the government, why’d they leave it all at the hotel?"

Because what do you think would have happened if they were carrying guns around the streets of Washington to a presidential rally?

"Mind blowingly dumb, these bits of “evidence” they cite.

Indeed. it looks you still do not own that mirror that was suggested you buy before discussing other perople.

"Even with all that, these murderous nutjobs would still not be an actual threat to our democracy. Jeez, do these guys have superpowers or something? Without a carefully curated and sizeable band of co-conspirators and allies coordinated throughout the military and DOJ, this effort was guaranteed to fail. What is so hard to understand about that?"

It is hard to understand because it isn't a realistic view of what your opponents are saying. The point of the people 'peacefully having a picnic' at the Capital wasn't to directly overthrow the government themselves. It was to cause confusion and chaos and delay the certification of the election so democracy could be overcome by other means. The 'peaceful people having a picnic' who were beating up police officers and yelling for the hanging of Mike Pence were just useful idiots used by people in power who were more than willing to use their positions to overthrow a lawful and fair election. The useful idiots in themselves were not a real threat to democracy.

That still doesn't mean that since they were not DIRECTLY a threat to democracy, that democracy itself wasn't threatened by other actors.

53 replies and counting to this topic...

Can we please already stop referring to it as "OVERTURNING AN ELECTION".

It was NOT about "OVERTURNING AN ELECTION".

It WAS about challenging the certification of electoral votes. A CHALLENGE TO THE CERTIFICATION.

What is the purpose of a certification step anyway? If it has no purpose, then dispense with it.

It is there to provide the venue for challenging the likes of the hoax, hoopla, and fraud that was perpetrated in November 2020.

Overturn my rosy red rear.

The useful idiots in themselves were not a real threat to democracy. - Umm

OK, we can agree on that

That still doesn't mean that since they were not DIRECTLY a threat to democracy, that democracy itself wasn't threatened by other actors. - more Umm

Ahh, you have to introduce a new variable, direct or indirect, to maintain the self-delusion that our democracy was about to be lost. Ok by me, just don't expect everyone to see it that way.

Yikes. It could have been a lot worse if these nutjobs actually brought that firepower to the capitol, perhaps 100's killed

And I point this out to gun nuts, that the laws regarding guns in the capital actually worked, since they want to insist no gun law ever works. :)

But Jan 6th did happen.

It's happening in many "democracies!" around the world.

Because of you.

Get ready - Jan 6th was the good ol days.

Liberal and Globalist arrogance will see to it.

<<EchotaSheeple
It's happening in many "democracies!" around the world.
Because of you.
Get ready - Jan 6th was the good ol days.
Liberal and Globalist arrogance will see to it.>>

All too true. I think that there are a lot of folks who watch and 'tsk, tsk' at what's going on, and think it will continue with impunity.

That's what America's government thought back in the mid to late 70's too. And then all hell broke loose and the pompous bastards got tossed out.

I'm not talking about 50 years ago... how about TWO HUNDRED and fifty years ago?

It will go on... until it doesn't.

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