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Stocks A to Z / Stocks B / Berkshire Hathaway (BRK.A)
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Author: Web436   😊 😞
Number: of 15055 
Subject: Buffett interview 2019. BRK vs SPY
Date: 07/21/2023 10:38 AM
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I think this interview is fantastic.

https://www.ft.com/content/40b9b356-661e-11e9-a79d...

Buffett says BRK will do about the same as SPY over a lifetime. Any edge from BRK would be very very small.

Performance

Since April 2019

SPY 62.04% including reinvested dividends
BRK 59.5%
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Author: mungofitch 🐝🐝🐝🐝 SILVER
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Number: of 15055 
Subject: Re: Buffett interview 2019. BRK vs SPY
Date: 07/21/2023 2:34 PM
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It is a very close tie in this stretch: roughly a tie in terms of value creation, and roughly a tie in terms of price return.
Both picks became a little bit more expensive, but by roughly the same small amount.

The S&P has had an astounding run of profitability, and in that sense has barely become more expensive since that interview in spring 2019.
Smoothed real earnings for the S&P have been rising 5.34%/year in the last five years, the highest rate in about 65 years.
(the high rate is due to great margin improvement - real sales rose at 2.83%/year in the same stretch)
Since the interview, smoothed real earnings are up 5.8%/year plus dividends of 1.68% for value creation rate of inflation + 7.48%/year, which is historically phenomenal.

To get a sense of how fast that rise in profitability is: during the average five year stretch since 1960, the smoothed real earnings of the S&P 500 rose 2.27%/year.

Berkshire's book value rose inflation + 6.9%/year to March 2023, or about inflation + 7.8%/year to estimated June 2023, so almost exactly the same value creation rate as the S&P 500 in this stretch.

About the only excuse a Berkshire perma-bull could cite is that Berkshire's value growth rate wasn't an outlier, and the S&P's appears to have been : )

Jim
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Author: Engr27   😊 😞
Number: of 15055 
Subject: Re: Buffett interview 2019. BRK vs SPY
Date: 07/21/2023 3:55 PM
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Since April 2019

SPY 62.04% including reinvested dividends
BRK 59.5%


FWIW, SPY's multiple was 21.xx then. Now > 26.

It was more difficult than I would have expected to get the comparison for BRK.
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Author: mungofitch 🐝🐝🐝🐝 SILVER
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Number: of 15055 
Subject: Re: Buffett interview 2019. BRK vs SPY
Date: 07/21/2023 4:10 PM
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FWIW, SPY's multiple was 21.xx then. Now > 26.

With a cyclical smoothing adjustment to the earnings I estimate the change is much smaller.
I figure the S&P has been getting more expensive less than 1%/year in this stretch.

But that just moves the problem a bit...it has been several years now, but profits can't rise 3%/year faster than sales other than temporarily.
It would take a LOT of smoothing for the recent upswing in net margins to get filtered out!

Jim
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Author: knighttof3   😊 😞
Number: of 15055 
Subject: Re: Buffett interview 2019. BRK vs SPY
Date: 07/21/2023 6:17 PM
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Profits can rise faster than sales if RoS keeps rising.
Intuitively, more modern firms have a higher net margin than the older firms.
Historically, also true. I took data from multpl.com P/E (by month) and P/S (by quarter); and massaged it align dates (add a day to P/S date to get the corresponding P/E date).
Although it is quite bumpy, RoS does seem to be rising steadily for the last 22 years:

Date P/S P/E RoS
07/01/2023 2.54 25.8 9.85%
04/01/2023 2.34 23.9 9.81%
01/01/2023 2.19 22.9 9.55%
10/01/2022 2.09 20.4 10.20%
07/01/2022 2.28 20.5 11.10%
04/01/2022 2.8 22.4 12.50%
01/01/2022 3.04 23.1 13.20%
10/01/2021 2.85 24.4 11.70%
07/01/2021 2.94 26.6 11.10%
04/01/2021 2.85 29.9 9.53%
01/01/2021 2.76 36 7.68%
10/01/2020 2.47 35.3 7.00%
07/01/2020 2.26 32.4 6.97%
04/01/2020 1.83 25 7.33%
01/01/2020 2.28 24.9 9.16%
10/01/2019 2.14 22 9.71%
07/01/2019 2.13 22.3 9.56%
04/01/2019 2.08 21.6 9.65%
01/01/2019 1.87 19.6 9.54%
10/01/2018 2.2 21.2 10.40%
07/01/2018 2.1 22.3 9.40%
04/01/2018 2.1 22.5 9.32%
01/01/2018 2.17 25 8.69%
10/01/2017 2.09 23.7 8.83%
07/01/2017 2.04 23.4 8.73%
04/01/2017 2.02 23.2 8.69%
01/01/2017 1.95 23.6 8.27%
10/01/2016 1.9 23.6 8.06%
07/01/2016 1.86 24.5 7.59%
04/01/2016 1.83 24 7.63%
01/01/2016 1.81 22.2 8.16%
10/01/2015 1.69 22.7 7.45%
07/01/2015 1.8 22.4 8.04%
04/01/2015 1.79 21.4 8.36%
01/01/2015 1.77 20 8.84%
10/01/2014 1.71 18.5 9.24%
07/01/2014 1.72 19 9.07%
04/01/2014 1.66 18.4 9.05%
01/01/2014 1.66 18.1 9.15%
10/01/2013 1.51 17.9 8.45%
07/01/2013 1.45 18.1 8.00%
04/01/2013 1.43 17.7 8.08%
01/01/2013 1.31 17 7.69%
10/01/2012 1.34 16.6 8.06%
07/01/2012 1.27 15.6 8.17%
04/01/2012 1.32 15.7 8.41%
01/01/2012 1.19 14.9 8.00%
10/01/2011 1.1 13.9 7.93%
07/01/2011 1.31 15.6 8.39%
04/01/2011 1.35 16.2 8.33%
01/01/2011 1.31 16.3 8.04%
10/01/2010 1.21 15.9 7.61%
07/01/2010 1.11 15.7 7.06%
04/01/2010 1.27 19 6.68%
01/01/2010 1.23 20.7 5.94%
10/01/2009 1.17 42.1 2.78%
07/01/2009 0.97 102 0.95%
04/01/2009 0.8 120 0.67%
01/01/2009 0.87 70.9 1.23%
10/01/2008 1.08 27.2 3.97%
07/01/2008 1.19 25.4 4.69%
04/01/2008 1.26 23.9 5.28%
01/01/2008 1.43 21.5 6.66%
10/01/2007 1.52 20.7 7.35%
07/01/2007 1.52 18.4 8.28%
04/01/2007 1.47 17.5 8.41%
01/01/2007 1.49 17.4 8.58%
10/01/2006 1.43 17.1 8.34%
07/01/2006 1.38 16.6 8.31%
04/01/2006 1.44 17.8 8.10%
01/01/2006 1.43 18.1 7.91%
10/01/2005 1.44 17.6 8.16%
07/01/2005 1.44 19 7.58%
04/01/2005 1.46 19 7.68%
01/01/2005 1.54 20 7.70%
10/01/2004 1.47 19.2 7.64%
07/01/2004 1.54 19.5 7.89%
04/01/2004 1.55 21.2 7.30%
01/01/2004 1.56 22.7 6.86%
10/01/2003 1.43 24.8 5.78%
07/01/2003 1.42 27.6 5.14%
04/01/2003 1.25 28.1 4.46%
01/01/2003 1.3 31.4 4.14%
10/01/2002 1.17 29.2 4.00%
07/01/2002 1.39 32.5 4.28%
04/01/2002 1.6 43.8 3.65%
01/01/2002 1.56 46.2 3.38%
10/01/2001 1.41 39.7 3.55%
07/01/2001 1.64 35.5 4.62%
04/01/2001 1.54 28 5.51%
01/01/2001 1.77 27.6 6.42%
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Author: mungofitch 🐝🐝🐝🐝 SILVER
SHREWD
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Number: of 15055 
Subject: Re: Buffett interview 2019. BRK vs SPY
Date: 07/21/2023 9:42 PM
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No. of Recommendations: 15
Profits can rise faster than sales if RoS keeps rising.
Intuitively, more modern firms have a higher net margin than the older firms...


Yes, net margins have risen. But they can't *keep* rising.
The intuition doesn't hold water for me.

There might well be a case that many firms have higher returns on assets than before (a few very large firms are asset light and extraordinarily profitable, though that doesn't seem to apply much to most firms).
But a higher return on assets doesn't equate to higher returns on sales across the economy.
There is only so much money in the economy, which is basically measured by sales, and only so much of that can end up in companies' coffers.

Net profit margins wander around. Beyond the business cycle, there are low stretches (e.g. 1983-1993) and high stretches (e.g. 2010-2020), depending on the share of GDP going to pesky things like employees, taxes, real interest rates, energy and raw materials, and non-domestic suppliers of goods or services.
In the US, the labour share of income has fallen a lot in recent years, and the government and bondholders haven't done that well either, so net margins are near their historical highs.
But that has a limit.

Consequently it can't be extrapolated. Net profit margins over the very long run are bound to a range.
They can certainly never exceed sales, and (probably) never even exceed maybe a third of sales. Probably not even a fifth.
And they can't stay below zero for any length of time without calling into question the entire concept of for-profit companies.

So, yes, profits have grown a lot faster than sales for a while.
But this has to halt at some point. If not immediately, then probably not at a level much higher than this given the historical range.
The lowest level in recent years is above the highest level seen in the prior decades.
They might stay at quite elevated levels, or they might fall back to what used to be considered normal. Other than a predictable dip during recessions, I have no idea.
But there is no structural or logical reason to think they can continue to rise for any length of time.

Absent any better information, if I had to make a guess I start with the notion that the average figure for the coming 5-20 years will fall back to a point halfway between the recent observations and the old normal range.
Here's a chart you can try to eyeball. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=cSh
Maybe around 8.5% - 9% sounds like a reasonable guess without much pessimism? In between the old highs (when normal was low) and the recent lows (when normal was high).

Jim
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