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Author: Bankman007   😊 😞
Number: of 15055 
Subject: OT Gurus Focus Dollar General
Date: 08/21/2023 9:41 AM
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Short summary: Guru Focus values the company around $277 and believes the stock to be significantly undervalued.

https://www.gurufocus.com/news/2068134/is-dollar-g...
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Author: mungofitch 🐝🐝🐝🐝 SILVER
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Number: of 15055 
Subject: Re: OT Gurus Focus Dollar General
Date: 08/21/2023 10:05 AM
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Surprisingly readable, for an article written by a bot!

Jim
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Author: Bankman007   😊 😞
Number: of 15055 
Subject: Re: OT Gurus Focus Dollar General
Date: 08/21/2023 10:58 AM
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How can you tell?
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Author: Manlobbi HONORARY
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Number: of 15055 
Subject: Re: OT Gurus Focus Dollar General
Date: 08/21/2023 11:28 AM
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Surprisingly readable, for an article written by a bot!

It certainly is written by a bot. If you don't believe me, read the following description of planetary life forms. It is from a text-based computer game that I wrote several years ago in which the software describes tens of millions of stars, their planets, and where environmentally suitable the software generates life from first principles - based on the gravity, temperature, geology, and so on (which was itself generated by each planet's proximity to the star, and the type, and size of the star). I worked with an astrobiologist (this is actually a real profession) briefly to expand some of my ideas.

Ueneyg: 1st planet The planet's surface is cool and gaseous and the planet's most sophisticated species is essentially nothing more than a highly elaborate network of biological wires functioning as a highly effective mind. It is understood that this intriguing creature reproduces by the production of its basic elements activated by the absorption of nuclear radiation generated within the planet. The communication with members of its species involves radio waves and the creature can generate extremely high temperatures anywhere within itself and by collecting and firing off unwanted mass it is able to accelerate throughout space.

Czeyts: 7th planet The planet has a liquid surface below very little atmosphere and the most interesting species hibernates for most of its life and has a cockroach-like form with a semi-transparent skin. Propagation involves the breeding of two genders resulting in natural selection. This species has established colonies on other stars.

Vruevjae: 2nd planet The planet's surface can be seen to be smooth and hard with heavy volcanic activity. The planet's most advanced species lives on the planet's surface and it has the appearance of a tall shrub-like plant mostly red in colour. The creature reproduces by male and female exchanging genes in large groups and discharging a series of strings each with a small nodule that explodes to distribute new cells.

Shaenye: 4th planet The planet has a rather featureless sandstone surface with a thick gaseous atmosphere. The dominant form of life lives on the solid surface of the planet where it can absorb the star's rays. This species is akin to a simple but uncommon carbon-based life form and this largest known life form has declined almost to extinction owing to changes within the atmosphere.


If one can programme that, it is pretty trivial to programme these robot articles about stocks, given the enormous amount of data collected for each one. Where data is missing, you can just skip paragraphs, and have conditional expansion based on specific data available. Different templates for different categories (retail as for DG, another template for all the REITs, etc).

- Manlobbi
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Author: mungofitch 🐝🐝🐝🐝 SILVER
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Number: of 15055 
Subject: Re: OT Gurus Focus Dollar General
Date: 08/21/2023 11:44 AM
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How can you tell?

That article is just a quote from their company profile, followed by the output of a program that compares current valuation to historical average, turned into sentences, probably using one of a few templates.
The images, though quite nice, are automatically generated for all the stocks they cover.

It isn't exactly a big reach to guess that it's automatically written. The great majority of financial "news" articles in "news" feeds are written by bots, and have been for some years now. Zacks was an early mover. ("Dollar General (DG) Stock Moves -0.63%: What You Should Know..."). So these days it's better to assume it's written by a bot, but then look for anything at all that seems to show a human thought about it to see if it's an exception. This article has nothing like that. At best, someone gave it a once-over for plausibility before pushing it out.

Some articles have dead giveaways, like "Quarterly revenue rose by 0.003% compared to the same quarter last year". A human would just say revenue was flat.
The templates they use are getting better, though, so you don't see crazy stuff like that quite as often. It's easier to be fooled into thinking there was thinking behind what was written.

An example of a bot-written article.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/dollar-general-dg-s...

From the same template:
CVS Health (CVS) closed at $53.87 in the latest trading session, marking a -1.86% move from the prior day. This change lagged the S&P 500's...
DocuSign (DOCU) closed at $52.06 in the latest trading session, marking a +0.66% move from the prior day...
FedEx (FDX) closed at $226.33 in the latest trading session, marking a -1.01% move from the prior day. This change lagged the S&P 500's...
Palo Alto Networks (PANW) closed at $134.19 in the latest trading session, marking a -0.66% move from the prior day...
Union Pacific (UNP) closed at $202.51 in the latest trading session, marking a -0.69% move from the prior day. This change was narrower than...
Marathon Oil (MRO) closed at $26.80 in the latest trading session, marking a -1.03% move from the prior day. This move lagged the S&P 500's daily loss of...


Jim
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Author: bigshan   😊 😞
Number: of 15055 
Subject: Re: OT Gurus Focus Dollar General
Date: 08/21/2023 12:09 PM
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zacks has tons of bot produced, low quality articles. Compared to Zacks, this gurufocus one looks intelligent.
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Author: mungofitch 🐝🐝🐝🐝 SILVER
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Number: of 15055 
Subject: Re: OT Gurus Focus Dollar General
Date: 08/21/2023 2:04 PM
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zacks has tons of bot produced, low quality articles. Compared to Zacks, this gurufocus one looks intelligent.

For sure! Just because something is automatically generated doesn't mean it's useless. They are usually generated from real financial data.
I quite like the two "analysis" images in the Gurufocus piece.
They don't say what valuation metrics they're using, but in one sense it probably doesn't matter much.

Jim
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Author: Lester2216   😊 😞
Number: of 15055 
Subject: Re: OT Gurus Focus Dollar General
Date: 08/22/2023 11:54 AM
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Jim,
Thanks for your education and insight on these type of "business/investing" articles.
I do not think that most readers (including myself) are aware of how most of these articles are generated by "bots".
Lester
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Author: Bankman007   😊 😞
Number: of 15055 
Subject: Re: OT Gurus Focus Dollar General
Date: 08/22/2023 12:07 PM
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Ditto. I had no idea to the degree and wasn't really looking for that either.
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Author: Alias   😊 😞
Number: of 15055 
Subject: Re: OT Gurus Focus Dollar General
Date: 08/24/2023 9:36 AM
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No. of Recommendations: 1
DLTR taking a hit today
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Author: Lear 🐝  😊 😞
Number: of 15055 
Subject: Re: OT Gurus Focus Dollar General
Date: 08/24/2023 10:58 AM
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Likely related to DLTR's earnings release, which doesn't seem to seem too weak at first glance, save for the issue of shrinking margins. DLTR is down about 10% as I type. The market is certainly reacting to the downside.

To the extent there is a reason for DG's month long swoon, I suspect it may be related to news coming out re: DG foot traffic, which puts it as lagging its peers in year over year comparisons: https://www.placer.ai/blog/discount-and-dollar-cha....

I'm skeptical this is a long term concern for DG, and I'm holding a heavy amount, but that's my best guess as to the short term weakness, beyond "portfolio managers don't expect a swing up for this quarter".



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Author: mungofitch 🐝🐝🐝🐝 SILVER
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Number: of 15055 
Subject: Re: OT Gurus Focus Dollar General
Date: 08/24/2023 11:26 AM
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No. of Recommendations: 8
DLTR taking a hit today

I'm not that surprised.
Short term reactions like this are rarely particularly rational, but Dollar Tree seemed to be a lot higher in its valuation range than Dollar General has been within its range, so a price slip for Dollar Tree isn't a shocker.
Phrased another way, DG has seemed very cheap lately, and Dollar Tree hasn't. The DLTR drop is in the direction of evening things up : )

Jim
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Author: Mark19   😊 😞
Number: of 15055 
Subject: Re: OT Gurus Focus Dollar General
Date: 08/24/2023 7:37 PM
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I looked at gurufocus. There model portfolios have not done well at all.
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Author: WEBspired   😊 😞
Number: of 15055 
Subject: Re: OT Gurus Focus Dollar General
Date: 08/25/2023 12:35 PM
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No. of Recommendations: 4
Added a bit more to DG down here @155 as it is so disliked by Mr. Market, esp. after DLTR results. Earnings 8/31 will be interesting & may provide an opportunity to buy more ground beef on sale. Revenue is over $38B, up 13B over last 4 years, PE 14.4, PEG 1.6 and 25% cheaper multiple compared to DLTR.

Jim, please let us know when you pound your mahogany table!
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Author: Alias   😊 😞
Number: of 15055 
Subject: Re: OT Gurus Focus Dollar General
Date: 08/25/2023 1:17 PM
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same. currently 3.4pct of my portfolio, waiting to see if after earnings i can add at a lower price and increase it to 5pct, else happy with current exposure
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Author: mungofitch 🐝🐝🐝🐝 SILVER
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Number: of 15055 
Subject: Re: OT Gurus Focus Dollar General
Date: 08/25/2023 2:16 PM
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Jim, please let us know when you pound your mahogany table!

I set a limit for how much I was going to buy.
Blew through that yesterday.
Of course that doesn't mean that it was a good move, but I'll admit it.

My thinking went like this:
If I sell these DG securities that I own, and buy these DG securities instead, I'll improve my breakeven per share and have even have upside on a few more shares...but then I couldn't bring myself to do all the sales : )

Here's a little something to get a handle on things: anyone considering the purchase of any single stock should have a notion of what it might be worth, not just table thumping from Some Guy on the internet. Get out an envelope and turn it over, grab a pencil.

As with most firms, they have some better-than-average and worse-than average years.
If you eyeball a smooth line through their history of earnings, you can get an idea of what the cyclically adjusted level might be.
Using that, and historical stock prices, you can get an idea of what the market valuation level was in the past.
The average cyclically adjusted earnings yield between 10 and 4 years ago equated to a P/E of 18.5
The average cyclically adjusted earnings yield in the last 4 years has equated to a P/E of 21.6, but let's ignore that.
I consider it a better-than-average firm with better-than-average prospects for growth in value per share.
On that basis, I am pencilling in a future price of around 18.5 times future cyclically adjusted earnings as "normal" for them. Even if the average is reasonably far from that, the variability of valuations in this industry pretty much ensures that this number will be hit from time to time.

How about a growth rate?
Sales per share have risen around inflation + 10.0%/year in the last five years. Let's reach into a sack of dice and say inflation + 6.5%/year seems possible, as a stake in the ground for discussion purposes. If we assume that net margins remain unchanged from their currently below-average levels, the sales rate of growth is also the forecast for EPS growth.

They're making money at the rate of around $10.50 per share at the moment, so we start off our forecast by increasing that by inflation+6.5%/year.

One downside to remember:
Debt is about $7bn. Interest rates have risen. Interest cost per share was $0.96 last fiscal year (ended January 2023), and $0.68 the year before. Let's imagine a new level of $1.60/share cost for this and subsequent years. (that $1.60/share/year equates to an assumption of around 5% weighted average interest rate on $7bn balance on 220m shares outstanding) So, compared to current costs around a buck, we can knock $0.60 off future pretax earnings per share, which equates to knocking $0.46 from after-tax EPS. Their tax rate is quite high.

So we will remove that much from all our future EPS figures. e.g., next year might be $10.72 instead of the $11.18 that you'd get with 6.5% growth from current $10.50ish.
(Note, a debt pile is the one thing that inflation is good for. Since we're assuming the interest rates and costs will rise then stay flat, we are implicitly assuming that real debt will rise with inflation, not get eroded nor paid down at all--reasonably conservative)

So, working from all those numbers, and assuming (say) a five year hold, EPS would be $13.93 in five years (in today's dollars) and price would be $258 (in today's dollars). From today's price of $155, that would be a five year return of inflation + 10.70%/year compounded.

Modify your assumptions to suit, but that seems like a very attractive starting back-of-the-envelope return.

I don't see many of the more common risk factors. No defined benefit pension plan. Debt is not a problem: the $7bn balance seems very moderate compared to the aggregate $8.7bn in cash flows from operating activities in the last 3 years. In essence, they don't ever need to roll: if their maturity is reasonably staggered, they could probably pay off every note out of current earnings as it comes due if they wanted to. They don't have bad credit card debt or bad receivables the way a lot of firms do. They are very geographically dispersed, so weather and climate risks are presumably diffuse.

Jim
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Author: mungofitch 🐝🐝🐝🐝 SILVER
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Number: of 15055 
Subject: Re: OT Gurus Focus Dollar General
Date: 08/25/2023 2:21 PM
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No. of Recommendations: 10
... that would be a five year return of inflation + 10.70%/year compounded.

Sorry, I forgot to add the dividend yield. Add 1.50%/year to get a real total return forecast over five years of inflation + 12.2%/year compounded.
On the back of this envelope, anyway.

That's high enough that you could put in some substantially more conservative assumptions and still get a nice return.
The problem is if I've missed an existential risk that could lead to permanent loss of capital, but those are blessedly rare for firms that are making so darned much money all the time.
And today's price seems to offer at least a thin margin of safety.

Jim
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Author: maxthetrade   😊 😞
Number: of 15055 
Subject: Re: OT Gurus Focus Dollar General
Date: 08/25/2023 2:35 PM
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Here is a short WSJ video describing DG's strategy pretty well, it's two years old but there really hasn't changed much.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzxLPvjTgLE
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Author: Knighted   😊 😞
Number: of 15055 
Subject: Re: OT Gurus Focus Dollar General
Date: 08/25/2023 4:30 PM
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Thanks Jim for this - I feel like I've gleaned a lot from the thought process and example of developing a value estimate you've shared.

It seems like using an approach like above would be a good first step/filter for identifying potential investment candidates.

What do you think should be the second step? Evaluating risk factors per your last paragraph, perhaps with something like a common checklist of business/industry risks to assess a candidate against?

And is there a third (or additional) step you'd take before investing in a company that has passed the hurdles above?

Also, do you think having deep knowledge of the company and industry is necessary or critical to using an approach like this to select strong investment candidates, or do you think that's more icing on the cake?
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Author: mungofitch 🐝🐝🐝🐝 SILVER
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Number: of 15055 
Subject: Re: OT Gurus Focus Dollar General
Date: 08/25/2023 5:24 PM
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What do you think should be the second step?

That's easy.
Find the overoptimism in your assumptions, squeeze that out, repeat : )
Long ago I based my models for IBM on the notion that they would, sooner or later, make $20 a share, and the biggest unknown was the time frame.
My forecast for the likely time frame was more conservative than all the investment houses and analysts, but that doesn't help if they never manage it.
Since then EPS has fallen at about a buck per share per year per year--oops. The lesson was that there was way too much optimism about their business prospects, and way too much optimism about my understanding of why and how much it was predictable. I was in good company, but that is little consolation. It was my second biggest loss ever.

Part of the predictability is running through a list of obvious flaws, and ruling out any candidate that might have one.
Too much leverage, too critical on a legal situation that might reasonably be expected to change, signs that management might possibly be less than 100% trustworthy, a superficially tempting winner in an industry known for its horrible economics.
Make a list of 20 possible big red flags--it's not hard. Then use the list. That's hard. Remember the Nike slogan.

For some firms, you'll want to model sales and margin quite separately.
Some firms have relatively trending sales but oscillating margins, so extrapolating sales and making assumptions about normalized margins can help improve things.
For example, the table in this post on Alphabet can be a useful template https://www.shrewdm.com/MB?pid=687699769

For a few firms of course, future earnings aren't the best proxy for value. Berkshire is the obvious example here.
Fun fact:
If you use peak-to-date book-per-share as your metric for BRK, then the rate of change of that metric is in effect the company's ROE.
For all four year rolling intervals (quarterly snapshots) for stretches ending March 2013 through ending June 2022, the rate of change was inflation + 9.9%.
The remarkable thing was the extraordinary steadiness: the standard deviation was less than 1%. Extremes were inflation + 8.6% to inflation + 11.7%.
Even if you don't use peak-to-date for book which has a smoothing effect, the standard deviation of those rolling-four-year results was only 1.3%.
The latest figure is inflation + 7.6%...still in the old range if you're looking at nominal numbers, but the after-inflation number is flagging.
(some part of that is the fact that working assets on the books like aircraft or furniture stores don't get marked up in value with inflation, but working assets aren't really really a big part of the pie)
The two observations from this:
(1) The steadiness really is remarkable. For now, assuming inflation plus 7-8%/year for the next 5-10 years doesn't seem to be aggressive. I count on 7, kind of expect 8, hope for more.
(2) The absolute number isn't that great. But I'm cool with that. I'll make it up on volume.


Also, do you think having deep knowledge of the company and industry is necessary or critical to using an approach like this to select strong investment candidates, or do you think that's more icing on the cake?

I think it's necessary for only one big reason:
You have to understand a company's economics, how and why they make their money, to be able to assess how likely it is to change for the better or for the worse.
You can't stamp out the optimism hidden in your projections if you can't see it.
Similarly, a relatively deep understanding is needed to have a feel for what big unexpected things might go wrong.
For example, Apple's numbers alone won't tell you that the big risk (in my eyes) is the Chinese Communist Party because of the extraordinarily large bet on China operations and sales.
I used to figure I had a decent handle on the "pretty darned sure" outlook for maybe 20 companies, and real confidence in maybe 10.
It has taken my many many years of work and study since then to improve that down to about five now. I have much more knowledge about many more businesses, but the dominating factor is improved knowledge and appreciation of how little I know and how unpredictable the world is.
Of course, that doesn't mean you have to be the deepest expert in every industry. Some industries are inherently simpler than others, so extreme depth isn't as needed in those. That's where I hunt!
For example, other than a bit of inflation on the sticker, dollar stores haven't really changed since the days of Woolworths five-and-dime stores.

Some industries are full of unpredictable firms, but the industry as a whole (a scatter-shot bet) is relatively predictable.
For example, somebody who owns small pieces in all medical device and medical supply firms will probably do pretty well. Individually they are hard to follow, but as a group they have excellent economics and long run returns--perhaps that's likely to continue?
Average return last 10 years among the two relevant industry categories at Value Line is 13.2%/year, which is 3.9%/year better than the average firm in their database.
A similar thing was once noted by Mr Buffett about drug firms.

My biggest insight:
Never look for the companies that have the highest likely returns--too many people looking there, the uncertainty is high, and on average people overpay for growth so they're rarely undervalued.
Look instead for the assets that you (justifiably) have the highest confidence in their futures, even if they are slow growers, or even cash cows or cigar butts.
Whether it's stocks or real estate or Beanie Babies, if you know what something is worth better than the average player, it's not hard to find a way to make money from that knowledge.

But you still want high returns? Go to the dark side. FIRST find something you have supreme confidence in your ability to predict, even if it's a slow grower. THEN add a pinch of leverage. It doesn't take much at all to turn an uninteresting rate of return into a very interesting one.
Just never fund the leverage with a loan that can be called.

Jim
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Author: Beginner   😊 😞
Number: of 15055 
Subject: Re: OT Gurus Focus Dollar General
Date: 08/27/2023 7:40 PM
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No. of Recommendations: 2
Thank you, Jim.

I think I can get out my pencil, now, since I'm understanding more of Chapter 11 in, The Intelligent Investor, and some of what you've been writing.

Appreciate it.

Elizabeth
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Author: Baybrooke   😊 😞
Number: of 15055 
Subject: Re: OT Gurus Focus Dollar General
Date: 08/27/2023 11:27 PM
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mungofitch: Long ago I based my models for IBM on the notion that they would, sooner or later, make $20 a share. It was my second biggest loss ever

Of course you are under no obligation to share, but if you don't mind sharing, what was your first biggest loss ever? The intent of revisiting is only to review the lessons learned, nothing else. Was it the big SP500 short position you constructed also around the same time period? I don't recall you ever telling us the story of how that position eventually got closed.
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