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Charlie Kirk from Turning Points USA spoke at the University of Washington last night. As is their wont to do, Antifa showed up and tried to intimidate the folks wanting to attend his speech:

https://twitter.com/choeshow/status/17880551968343...

Antifa. They seem to cause a lot of trouble for merely being an idea. Notice that the defunded University police department had all of ...1... cop on the scene.

libs think this stuff is fun and games, going out all cosplayed up and bashing people over the head. One of these days they're going to FA jusssst a little too much.

Dope's wellspring for his 'antifa' report is a tweet by a rightwing extremist, a 'fellow" at "Discovery Institute."

What's Discovery Institute?

"The Discovery Institute is a politically conservative think tank that advocates the pseudoscientific concept of intelligent design. It was founded in 1991 in Seattle as a non-profit offshoot of the Hudson Institute."

Its "Teach the Controversy" campaign aims to permit the teaching of anti-evolution, intelligent-design beliefs in United States public high school science courses in place of accepted scientific theories, positing that a scientific controversy exists over these subjects when in fact there is none.

The Wedge Strategy is a political and social action plan authored by the institute. The strategy was put forth in a Discovery Institute manifesto known as the "Wedge Document". Its goal is to change American culture by shaping public policy to reflect politically conservative fundamentalist evangelical Protestant values."

Praise the lard.

Turley weighs in:

https://jonathanturley.org/2024/05/08/this-is-anti...

Some Democrats have played a dangerous game in supporting or excusing the work of Antifa. Former Democratic National Committee deputy chair Keith Ellison, now the Minnesota attorney general, once said Antifa would “strike fear in the heart” of Trump. This was after Antifa had been involved in numerous acts of violence and its website was banned in Germany. His own son, Minneapolis City Council member Jeremiah Ellison, declared his allegiance to Antifa in the heat of the protests this summer. During a prior hearing, Democratic senators refused to clearly denounce Antifa and falsely suggested that the far right was the primary cause of recent violence. Likewise, Joe Biden has dismissed objections to Antifa as just “an idea.”

It's an idea, all right. If you're a democrat you've got your very own little army of Sturmabteilung you can deploy when The Normies dare to do something uppity like, you know, open their mouths.

It's an idea, all right.

Yes, it is.

I still don't think you understand the point that's being made. Antifa is an idea, like "anarchism" is an idea. There are anarchists, and there are anarchist organizations (as oxymoronic as that seems). But you would never say that "A rally today was broken up by Anarchism" or that "Members of Anarchism were seen at a local protest."

BTW, Ellison didn't say that "Antifa" would strike fear in the heart of Trump. He said the book, "Antifa: The Anti-Fascist Handbook," should strike that fear. Again, because Antifa is an idea/strategy/doctrine, not an organization.

https://www.cbsnews.com/minnesota/news/keith-ellis...

I still don't think you understand the point that's being made. Antifa is an idea, like "anarchism" is an idea. There are anarchists, and there are anarchist organizations (as oxymoronic as that seems). But you would never say that "A rally today was broken up by Anarchism" or that "Members of Anarchism were seen at a local protest."

Question for you.
Would you call the IRA (Irish Republican Army) an idea, or would you have called it a group?

Would you call the IRA (Irish Republican Army) an idea, or would you have called it a group?

Sure - after all, the original IRA was a single group. Over time, that group split into various different organizations - most prominently in 1969 - each of which operated under the banner of the IRA, but had separate organizational names. While there were different groups that claimed that title, "IRA" always referred to the group(s) itself - not the thing they were fighting for, which was "Irish Republicanism."

Analogizing that to the current topic, "Antifa" is more equivalent to "Irish Republicanism" - the belief system that motivates a number of organizations, but not the organization itself. Just like it would have been nonsensical to say that "Irish Republicanism gave a speech to supporters earlier this afternoon," it's not accurate to refer to Antifa as if it were an organization, rather than collection of ideas or beliefs.

Since "Antifa" is also a system of tactics, it's also akin to saying something like, "In Northern Ireland today, Terrorism placed a number of explosive devices near a local office." Again, it's nonsensical - Terrorism was a tactic of the IRA, but wasn't an organization or a group of people.

Since "Antifa" is also a system of tactics, it's also akin to saying something like, "In Northern Ireland today, Terrorism placed a number of explosive devices near a local office." Again, it's nonsensical - Terrorism was a tactic of the IRA, but wasn't an organization or a group of people.

Close, but incorrect.
The Irish learned that putting on uniforms and going toe-to-toe with the British Army was a bad idea. Thus the IRA was born...it had a centralized political wing and then a bunch of 'cells' that operated independently.

Each 'cell' was compartmentalized such that it could function on its own with the added benefit that if the British security services managed to roll one of them up the damage was limited to that one cell only.

But the training and tactics was consistent across each cell of the IRA. That's the model that Antifa follows today.

No one who looks at their tactics and their organization can say, "Hey, what a coincidence it is that all these same people somehow manage to follow the exact same playbook coast to coast" while simultaneously claiming there is zero organization there.

We're going to have to agree to disagree here. They *are* a thing and their cells coordinate targets, methods and tactics.

No one who looks at their tactics and their organization can say, "Hey, what a coincidence it is that all these same people somehow manage to follow the exact same playbook coast to coast" while simultaneously claiming there is zero organization there.

I can. Because you don't need to resort to "coincidence" to find out why they're all following the same playbook. There's a literal playbook! It's the book that Ellison was literally holding up in the twitter post that Turley was criticizing in your earlier thread! People buy that book (or steal it - some of them are anarchic anti-capitalists) and apply what it says! It's not rocket science!

You don't need to resort to some imaginary centralized national organization pulling some strings to explain that. I mean, it's exactly the same thing that right-wing critics constantly claim about liberals and Saul Alinsky - that modern liberal groups are all running the Alinsky "playbook" - without having to imagine that Saul Alinsky is secretly coordinating all their targets, methods and tactics from beyond the grave. He's not! He just published books, and some people follow what his books said!

You don't need to resort to some imaginary centralized national organization pulling some strings to explain that.

So you don't think there are well known activists who teach "resistance" to locals?

Sure you want your argument to die on that hill?

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/01/nyregion/columb...

At a news conference on Tuesday before the arrests, Mayor Eric Adams said the pro-Palestinian demonstration at Columbia has been “co-opted by professional outside agitators” who have no affiliation with the institution.
“They are not here to promote peace or unity or allow a peaceful displaying of one’s voice,” Mr. Adams said. “They are here to create discord and divisiveness.”

Count the NYT as a news outfit that doesn't see it like you do.

Meet Lisa Fithian:
Ms. Fithian said she came to Columbia on Monday afternoon to conduct a training session with about 30 students activists focused on safety and the general logistics of a protest. She said she had been invited informally by someone — she said she did not catch their name — on Sunday during a visit to City College of New York. She said she was not paid.

Count the number of LOLs one could issue from that paragraph. So some guy randomly invited her over there? And why call out the paid thing? Hahahahahahaha.

“We have to be willing to create a crisis. We have to be willing to engage in social disruption and create crisis for the people in power who are creating harm.”

Her words.

https://www.organizingforpower.org/about/about-lis...
Lisa Fithian has been working for nonviolent social change since the mid 1970’s. Over the years she has been a student, labor and community organizer on a broad range of issues. From environmental justice to student and worker rights, from peace and global justice to immigration and housing, Lisa continues to use a wide range of strategies and tactics and encouraged nonviolent direct action as one of the most effective strategies for change.

One of their code phrases is "Direct action", by the way.

Let's add far-right news org Reuters who also sees it my way:
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-repor...

You wouldn’t know it, but Armbruster, 5'5" and under 130 pounds, is a militant activist in the far-left Antifa movement. She has clashed on the streets with the rightwing Proud Boys extremist group, with the alt-right movement and with police.

Her arrest record – in Washington, DC, Arizona, Virginia, Minnesota and Florida – dates to 2003, for charges of unlawful assembly, failure to disperse, violating the Riot Act and assaulting far-right leaders and a police officer. Most of her prior charges were dismissed by judges or prosecutors; she faces three pending cases.

“We are prepared to put our bodies on the line in the event of police or fascist or racist violence,” she said. “And it’s really, like, a duty to humanity to do that, right?”

Like, totally a duty to riot, man. Far out!

In reality, Antifa is not a well-structured organization, but rather a loosely organized, secretive movement of like-minded far-left activists. There are no leaders, no hierarchy and no formal membership. Instead, the activists organize in small units called “affinity groups.”

In other words, cells based on the IRA model. You *can* take some solace in that the Reuters article is trying its hardest to pretend that this chick is some kind of hero.

I can. Because you don't need to resort to "coincidence" to find out why they're all following the same playbook. There's a literal playbook! It's the book that Ellison was literally holding up in the twitter post that Turley was criticizing in your earlier thread! People buy that book (or steal it - some of them are anarchic anti-capitalists) and apply what it says! It's not rocket science! - albaby

-----------

Ok, fine on the language technicalities as you see them, but please allow us common folk to use shorthand "Antifa" as the collection of bad people assaulting, intimidating and vandalizing somehow coincidentally in 50 cities.

BTW, if there is no central supply, why is it that many if the signs carried by protesters 1,000 miles from one another and at the same time have the exact same dimensions, words, and color scheme. It's a thing that doesn't lend itself to co-incidence despite what Antifa means to you.

In reality, Antifa is not a well-structured organization, but rather a loosely organized, secretive movement of like-minded far-left activists. There are no leaders, no hierarchy and no formal membership. Instead, the activists organize in small units called “affinity groups.”

In other words, cells based on the IRA model.

No, it's not. I mean, it's right there in your Reuters quote - which you mistakenly think supports your point. Right out, they say that Antifa isn't an organization - it's a movement.

The IRA had leaders. They had an organization. The organization was structured around cells, which simply means that lower-level members of the group didn't have information about the rest of the group. Organizations can be structured around cells - but they're still organizations. They still have leadership - a group of people that are in charge, that are directing the activities of the group. They can do that through cells (where one cell doesn't know what the other is doing) - they can do it indirectly and clandestinely as well. But there's still a leadership structure that's directing things. Famously, there were different IRA organizations - that disagreed and competed with each other. Each of those organizations were structured on cells, but they weren't all part of the same organization. Because those cells were under different leadership in competing organizations.

Antifa doesn't have that. There's no leadership. There's no members. There's no structure of an Antifa group. It's a system of beliefs and tactics.

It's like "environmentalism" isn't an organization. There are lots of people who are in groups that promote Green ideas. Many of those groups will have overlapping membership, share ideas and tactics, and from time to time coordinate with each other. But that doesn't mean there's an "Environmentalism" organization that actually exists and runs things. Those different groups aren't "cells" of the national Environmentalism entity.

The same is true of Antifa. It's a movement, with various people engaging in similar actions advancing the goals of Antifa beliefs. But they're not members of a single national organization, any more than the Sierra Club and the NRDC are part of the same organization.

BTW, if there is no central supply, why is it that many if the signs carried by protesters 1,000 miles from one another and at the same time have the exact same dimensions, words, and color scheme. It's a thing that doesn't lend itself to co-incidence despite what Antifa means to you.

The same way all those right-wing memes all have Pepe the Frog in them, despite the fact that there isn't a national organization promoting Pepe the Frog. The same way all those Gaza protestors all use the same chant ("From the river to the sea..."), even though there isn't a master group directing them all. Because the internet exists.

No, it's not. I mean, it's right there in your Reuters quote - which you mistakenly think supports your point. Right out, they say that Antifa isn't an organization - it's a movement.

I don't want to play with words here...multiple things can be true at the same time.

I don't want to play with words here...multiple things can be true at the same time.

True, but your Reuters quote affirmatively stated that Antifa wasn't an organization, but instead was a movement. It didn't say Antifa was an organization. It doesn't support your point. You might disagree with Reuters characterization of Antifa as not an organization, and claim that Antifa is both - but the Reuters quote doesn't say that.

Again, because Antifa isn't an organization. There's no "leader" of Antifa. There's no structure. It's just a system of beliefs and tactics that a number of people subscribe to. There are organizations of people that ascribe to Antifa beliefs and tactics, to be sure. But there's no national organization that directs or controls or guides all these folks. Unsurprisingly for any system of beliefs based on a published guide of principles and tactics - and where people can all find and talk to each other on the internet - many of these groups will say and do many of the same things. Which doesn't mean they're all part of one large organization.

True, but your Reuters quote affirmatively stated that Antifa wasn't an organization, but instead was a movement. It didn't say Antifa was an organization. It doesn't support your point. You might disagree with Reuters characterization of Antifa as not an organization, and claim that Antifa is both - but the Reuters quote doesn't say that.

It says there's not an "organization" in the sense of

Antifa National Anarchist Headquarters
ATTN: Hans Blofeld, Director
5555 Someplace Dr
Anytown, USA 93992-1580

They don't have that, and I've said that a hundred times. What they are is a bunch of cells as I said that collaborate online, coordinate tactics, and plan "events" in each others' cities.

Liberals are either obsessed with causing political violence, OR obsessed with sex and courtrooms and in the meantime, they'll let Bird Flu start hurting people cause they were so focused on other things that were not important.

They don't have that, and I've said that a hundred times. What they are is a bunch of cells as I said that collaborate online, coordinate tactics, and plan "events" in each others' cities.

Then they're not "cells." I mean, that's the whole point of why some organizations have cells. They don't collaborate with each other, or coordinate with each other, or plan events with each other. In an organization based on cells, the cells don't have contact with each other at all. They're not even supposed to know who the other cells are.

What you're describing are just different organizations that will work together for a common goal or interest. Like the Sierra Club, the Audubon Society, and the NRDC will collaborate and coordinate and plan joint events - but they're not each "cells" of some larger organization of Environmentalism. Environmentalism is a movement and belief system and philosophy, not an organization.

please allow us common folk to use shorthand "Antifa" as the collection of bad people assaulting, intimidating and vandalizing somehow coincidentally in 50 cities.

No. Because to you anything you don't like becomes Antifa that way and it loses its meaning - and deliberately. Y'all want to throw up a unified bogeyman where there is none, and make it leftist. Well fascism is a far right thing, and you have been bathing in proto-fascism for a while. A good section of Antifa activists are not liked by liberals.

So no. Unless you want us to call you fascist.

>>please allow us common folk to use shorthand "Antifa" as the collection of bad people assaulting, intimidating and vandalizing somehow coincidentally in 50 cities.

No. Because to you anything you don't like becomes Antifa that way and it loses its meaning - and deliberately. Y'all want to throw up a unified bogeyman where there is none, and make it leftist. Well fascism is a far right thing, and you have been bathing in proto-fascism for a while. A good section of Antifa activists are not liked by liberals.

So no. Unless you want us to call you fascist. - Lapsody

-----------------

Let's see, "Those thugs dressed in black helmets and body armor who can be seen daily intimidating, attacking, burning, assaulting, trespassing and destroying" just torched 15 police cars in Seattle.

Nah, that is just too long to use in a sentence and so I will continue to use the term Antifa for the thugs and agitators such as those at GWU who called for the beheading of school administrators.

And I can and do use the shorthand, Antifa, without asserting there exists some organization with that name. Aggregate terms are used all the time to point out the group whose bad behavior you are about to describe, liberals use terms like racist, cultist, Nazi, and white supremacist all the time to heap contempt on the people with whom they disagree - such as we patriotic Trump supporters.

I use Antifa the same way - to group a bunch of bad guys, dressed in black, carrying bear spray and umbrellas, whether they are busy breaking into buildings, tearing down statues, or in smaller groups harassing or beating up people on street corners.

So get used to it, or call me a fascist if you must. No big deal, I have been called worse.

“patriotic Trump supporters”

Wow, I believe that may be a rare triple oxymoron.

So get used to it, or call me a fascist if you must.

Most posters make an attempt to correctly apply correct adjectives relative to the behavior of a person in the event or article under discussion.

When Trump whined last week that he prefers immigrants from "nice countries" like Norway, as opposed to African and Latin American countries he deems "shitholes" it's accurate, in to label him 'racist.'

Your intentional misuse of labels doesn't warrant calling you 'fascist.' It does warrant deeming your posts unworthy of serious consideration. Perhaps "troll' would be the appropriate label considering your declared intention to spew nonsense.

And I can and do use the shorthand, Antifa, without asserting there exists some organization with that name.

Perhaps.

But that distinction is rather the point in many of these conversations. Joe Biden is frequently mocked for having noted that Antifa was "an idea," not an organization in the 2020 presidential debates - as with the Turley quote that moved the thread in this direction. But as you seem to recognize, that position is correct.

And it's important - because Biden was raising that point to illustrate how ignorant DJT was about Antifa during that debate. Trump at that time was claiming that he would have Antifa designated as a terrorist group, which was just nonsensical (because, again, Antifa isn't an organization). Trump genuinely didn't understand that distinction, and didn't understand that his own FBI had reached that same conclusion.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/biden-says-antifa-idea-...

So whether your use of Antifa as a shorthand doesn't imply asserting of the existence of an organization, other conservatives (like Turley) will sometimes use Biden's correct insistence that Antifa is not an organization as a criticism of the President. And it's appropriate to point out that criticism is wrong.

Let's see, "Those thugs dressed in black helmets and body armor who can be seen daily intimidating, attacking, burning, assaulting, trespassing and destroying" just torched 15 police cars in Seattle.

Nah, that is just too long to use in a sentence and so I will continue to use the term Antifa for the thugs and agitators such as those at GWU who called for the beheading of school administrators.

"Thugs" is nice and short for ya. Or "riot thugs", "truth, Just, and the American Way thugs" becomes TJAAW thugs. Or just shorten it to TJthugs. Aren't fascists inventive? "Militant" thugs can become "Millie thugs: or "MilThugs", and we can say "Pretty Boy" Fascists and make that into PBJ Fascist Boys. then we can go into the crowd find one person with an 88 or HH and declare the whole things a fascist mob.

So whether your use of Antifa as a shorthand doesn't imply asserting of the existence of an organization, other conservatives (like Turley) will sometimes use Biden's correct insistence that Antifa is not an organization as a criticism of the President. And it's appropriate to point out that criticism is wrong. - albaby

================

Agree, pointing that out is clearly correct terminology. There is no identifiable overarching Antifa organization as has been your point. However, it seemed to me the dialogue on this board had become sidelined by a debate over definitions and lost was condemnation of the underlying behavior. And Antifa is effective as shorthand, for the less linguistically blessed, despite it's use upsetting the tender sensibilities of some. That's all.

Nah, that is just too long to use in a sentence and so I will continue to use the term Antifa for the thugs and agitators such as those at GWU who called for the beheading of school administrators.

Left wing Antifa is more accurate.

Snip
“Antifa (/ænˈtiːfə, ˈænti(ˌ)fə/) is a left-wing anti-fascist and anti-racist political movement in the United States. It consists of a highly decentralized array of autonomous groups that use nonviolent direct action, incivility, or violence to achieve their aims.[1][2] Antifa political activism includes non-violent methods like involving poster and flyer campaigns, mutual aid, speeches, protest marches, and community organizing.[3][4][5] Some who identify as antifa also use tactics involving digital activism, doxing, harassment, physical violence, and property damage.[6]

Antifa political activism includes non-violent methods like involving poster and flyer campaigns, mutual aid, speeches, protest marches, and community organizing.[3][4][5] Some who identify as antifa also use tactics involving digital activism, doxing, harassment, physical violence, and property damage.[6]

------------------

Interesting but Bias is showing....

Sentence 1 = Antifa political activism includes non-violent methods like involving poster and flyer campaigns, mutual aid, speeches, protest marches, and community organizing.

Sentence 2 = Some who identify as antifa also use tactics involving digital activism, doxing, harassment, physical violence, and property damage.

Sentence 1 associates the legal protest stuff with real Antifa; while

Sentence 2 assigns the bad behavior to pretenders identifying as Antifa and thereby besmirching Antifa's benevolent reputation. LOL.

Antifa is NEVER non-violent. They draw from a collection of disaffected people who feel powerless in their personal lives and lack meaning or focus. Antifa gives them the power to strike back at imaginary enemies.

If you disagree with them in any way, you’re part of “the fash” and you deserve what happens to you.

Trump was 100% right on who these people are. I’ve had to deal with them; most haven’t.

I’ve always said that liberals would feel differently about a lot of things if only they had to live in deep blue areas.

I’ve always said that liberals would feel differently about a lot of things if only they had to live in deep blue areas.

If liberals aren't living in deep blue areas, how are they deep blue?

(Confused)

If liberals aren't living in deep blue areas, how are they deep blue?


I should have said 'cities', 'counties' or 'municipalities'.
If you folks all lived in really DEEP BLUE places like Portland, Seattle or San Francisco most of you would be liberal Republicans.

Ever had one of those protest riots go through your biz district while you were having dinner? I have. It's not pleasant dealing with these people when they're allowed to run wild. That said it's amazing what just a litttttlle pushback will do...

If liberals aren't living in deep blue areas, how are they deep blue?

You are obviously unfamiliar with the Yogi Berra dimension of space and time.

Nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded.

(This is actually a much older comedic meme but in modern culture is most attributed to Yogi Berra.)


WTH

My dear old Grandpa was a WW2 veteran, a real American hero.
He used to like to say, "I was Antifa before it was cool."

If you folks all lived in really DEEP BLUE places like Portland, Seattle or San Francisco most of you would be liberal Republicans.

Then why aren't those places Republican?

I'm still confused. If liberals would become Republicans if they lived in DEEP BLUE places like Portland, Seattle or San Francisco, then why aren't those places Republican?

it seemed to me the dialogue on this board had become sidelined by a debate over definitions

Nope. Words have meaning.

Repeated lying about the nature of a person, group or event is exactly how prejudices are created.


That's how racist and bigoted tropes become normalized.

I’ve always said that liberals would feel differently about a lot of things if only they had to live in deep blue areas.

'If only?'

Deep blue areas are, by definition, where liberals live.

Then why aren't those places Republican?

Heh. Yeah, about that.
Seattle just elected a supermajority city council of hard core...

...moderates. And kicked the openly Communist council members most to the curb.

Seattle also just elected its first Republican official in more than 40 years in Ann Davison as City Attorney (the DA):

https://www.seattle.gov/cityattorney

You'll notice I didn't say you'd all turn into rock-ribbed Reaganites. I said 'Liberal Republican'.

"My dear old Grandpa was a WW2 veteran, a real American hero.
He used to like to say, "I was Antifa before it was cool."

My Dad and his brothers were anti-fascist (anti-nazi) street fighters in 1930s Vienna. They left in 1939 and made it into the US Army in time to do their part with your Grandpa.
-------------------------------------------

“The thing about us fascists is, it’s not that we don’t believe in freedom of speech. You can say whatever you want. We’ll just throw you in an oven.”
--Charlottesville fascist, Peter Tefft.


As for the slippery-slopists, afraid that Antifa will begin with Fascists and eventually attack anybody who opposes them, Bray maintains that the historical record does not support this fear: anti-Fascists who have shut down local hate groups, as in Denmark, usually go dark themselves, or turn their attention to other political projects, rather than finding new enemies to fight. (In his Atlantic piece, Beinart notes, “When fascism withered after World War II, antifa did too.”)

https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/an-int...

I’ve had to deal with them; most haven’t

You've dealt with Antifa personally?

"However, it seemed to me the dialogue on this board had become sidelined by a debate over definitions and lost was condemnation of the underlying behavior. And Antifa is effective as shorthand, for the less linguistically blessed, despite it's use upsetting the tender sensibilities of some."

Your explanation completely misses the point about how words have meanings and misusing words can lead to false representations. I don't expect you to understand this at all. But that isn't really my point of this posts.

Since you seem to think that Antifa is effective shorthand I have a question for you.

Since Antifa is literally shorthand for the phrase anti-facist. I would like to know how you consider yourself. I want to hear it in your own words. Are you pro-facist or anti-facist?

I will help you out as well by giving you a definition:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism
"a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition"

Do you support a strong centralized autocratic government headed by a dictorial leader with severe economic and social regimentation and the forcible supression of opposition or are you against systems of government like that?

I am betting you are going to dodge the question. I know it, you know it, everyone here knows you will. However, I would also bet that if you were somehow forced to answer, you would say that you are against that form of government and society. That would make you anti-fascist. Or Antifa. Meaning all of your smears on this thread apply to you.

Or Antifa. Meaning all of your smears on this thread apply to you. - Umm

----------------------------

Sez you. And who exactly am I smearing?

Antifa, as I use it, refers collectively to thugs, criminals, malcontents, and terrorists who we see breaking laws and undermining civil society in various contexts, current manifestation is the anti Israel movement on college campii. I condemn the violence and destruction regardless of the philosophy of the criminal, whether he calls himself FA, Anti FA, communist, socialist, marxist, Isis, Hamas, jihadist, or christian. Bad behavior is bad behavior regardless of the underlying politics of the perpetrator.

As a deeply liberal individual with socialist tendencies, I would never live anywhere other than a deeply blue city.

<As a deeply liberal individual with socialist tendencies, I would never live anywhere other than a deeply blue city.>

Amen! Same here. Plus I love live music and amazing food and art and culture and Unions and being in a place where women are in charge of their own bodies!

BHM: "Antifa, as I use it, refers collectively to thugs, criminals, malcontents, and terrorists who we see breaking laws and undermining civil society in various contexts"

As such, Donald J Trump is antifa.

I think you mean "MAGA". Those are the thugs and terrorists; ref Jan 6.

I'm vehemently anti-fascist.

Uh, huh. Just about everybody is.

It’s one of the most egregious lies the Black Bloc people tell.

I’m starting to get why there’s sooooo much pushback on this forum when that group is mentioned…

BHM: "Antifa, as I use it, refers collectively to thugs, criminals, malcontents, and terrorists who we see breaking laws and undermining civil society in various contexts"

sano: As such, Donald J Trump is antifa.

LMAO...perfect response.

"Sez you."

No. Says Mirriam Webster.

"Antifa, as I use it, refers collectively to thugs, criminals, malcontents, and terrorists who we see breaking laws and undermining civil society in various contexts, current manifestation is the anti Israel movement on college campii. I condemn the violence and destruction regardless of the philosophy of the criminal, whether he calls himself FA, Anti FA, communist, socialist, marxist, Isis, Hamas, jihadist, or christian. Bad behavior is bad behavior regardless of the underlying politics of the perpetrator."

Ok. Since you completely missed the whole point of that post, I will ask you to answer the question:

Do you support a strong centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader with severe economic and social regimentation and the forcible suppression of opposition or are you against systems of government like that?

It is a simple question.

Do you support a strong centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader with severe economic and social regimentation and the forcible suppression of opposition or are you against systems of government like that? - Umm

--------------------

NO.

You Next say, well BHM, that makes you Antifa,

Me, I guess it does.

You, so you are vanquished and will restrict your use of the word to only the approved definition.

me, Also No. There are too many flavors of protesters turned criminals to ascertain the pedigree of each one before heaping condemnation on their behavior.

Why do you care so much anyway? Am I unfairly besmirching antifa, whom you seek to protect? Or is my misuse of the word give you one more reason to joyfully bash on a conservative?

Or is my misuse of the word give you one more reason to joyfully bash on a conservative?

No need to bash conservatives. One of the things that strengthens America is an open dialog between progressives and conservatives.

Trump is not a conservative. He is sick, self-serving, mean spirited, and greedy.

I disagree with Liz Cheney on 98% of policies, but I still admire her. She’s a true conservatives who cares about American values and principals. She puts her country before her power. That is priceless, regardless of political leanings.

Do you support a strong centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader with severe economic and social regimentation and the forcible suppression of opposition or are you against systems of government like that?


People in cults do not think rationally. Therefore, it is extremely difficult to get them to see things as they really are.

I disagree with Liz Cheney on 98% of policies, but I still admire her. She’s a true conservatives who cares about American values and principals. She puts her country before her power. That is priceless, regardless of political leanings. - AW

-------------------------

"She’s a true conservatives".

She is such a "true" conservative, an incumbent to boot, that she lost her seat by a wide margin. Here is how beloved CNN put it,

"Cheney’s defeat appears to be the second worst for a House incumbent in the last 60 years, when you look at races featuring only one incumbent. As of Wednesday afternoon, she trailed Hageman by 37.4 points,"

bighairymike: She is such a "true" conservative, an incumbent to boot, that she lost her seat by a wide margin.

Cheney voted in line with president Trump 95.8% of the time in the 115th Congress and 92.8% of the time in the 116th Congress.

You don't get much more "true conservative" than that.

The fact that she lost her seat by 37.4% because she voted to impeach the Orange Turd is pretty solid proof that it's a frickin' cult.

Yesterday in New Jersey Trump was babbling about how wonderful it is to force teens to have their rapists babies, that it's "something that we should cherish"... that he would not give "one penny" to any school that has a vaccine mandate... repeatedly slurred his words ("All done by Biden. Carrydoubtitebyrite" and "Biden’s bordeninriviv")... repeated his threat against NATO... said that Chinese president Xi had "ships circling" a landlocked Beijing and claimed today's jobs number are "rigged".

You're in a cult.

NO

Of course you don’t. But here’s the thing: *he does*, and so do most of these “antifacscist” posters chiming in.

Ever heard any of them denouncing all the riots when Trump was President? Or disavowing the people who were attacking little old ladies leaving rallies? Or see them standing up for principles when Biden was siccing his DOJ on regular citizens?

Of course you haven’t. The irony of it all is that all these people railing against Trump don’t mind fascism at all; they just want it applied in the correct direction.

We’ve had a Trump Presidency and despite a lot of paranoid ravings on this board…it wasn’t anything like fascism. .

Yesterday in New Jersey Trump was babbling about how wonderful it is to force teens to have their rapists babies, that it's "something that we should cherish"... that he would not give "one penny" to any school that has a vaccine mandate... repeatedly slurred his words ("All done by Biden. Carrydoubtitebyrite" and "Biden’s bordeninriviv")... repeated his threat against NATO... said that Chinese president Xi had "ships circling" a landlocked Beijing and claimed today's jobs number are "rigged".


I know I'm repeating myself, but...only a cultist could listen to this spew and think "what a genius!"

Ever heard any of them denouncing all the riots when Trump was President? Or disavowing the people who were attacking little old ladies leaving rallies? Or see them standing up for principles when Biden was siccing his DOJ on regular citizens?

I deplore violence, with exceptions for defending yourself (or country).

That, of course, includes “attacking little old ladies.” Give me a link from a credible news source and I will deplore it.

I searched for “Biden was siccing his DOJ on regular citizens” and all that came up were web sites for local psychiatrists. Would you be so kind to give some brief examples of what you’re referring to?

"NO.

You Next say, well BHM, that makes you Antifa,

Me, I guess it does."

Yes. It does. I am just trying to make the point that you and Dope were dishonestly trying to paint with a broad brush when you use Antifa like you do.

"You, so you are vanquished and will restrict your use of the word to only the approved definition."

LOL. I can't believe I have to explain this to you.....

The whole point is that it isn't my definition. It is everyone's definition of the word. Words have meanings with all sorts of connotations attached to them. As Sano so correctly pointed out above that is how racist and bigoted tropes become normalized. It is also the way your political masters tribalize you. They make it so you don't think, you just hear the label and you know to hate whatever they are referring to. They want unthinking followers who respond to the label like Pavlov's dog does to a bell.

You and Dope are literally doing it here in this thread just like they want you to do.

"Why do you care so much anyway? Am I unfairly besmirching antifa, whom you seek to protect?"

Why do you care so much why I care? I am point out you are misusing a word and I am even pointing out why you are doing it so you could better yourself if you wanted to.

"Or is my misuse of the word give you one more reason to joyfully bash on a conservative?"

LOL I always find it funny when cultists think that just because they respond like Pavlov's dog that everyone else must do so as well.

Some people are capable of thinking for themselves and don't automatically hate when they hear a label like "conservative".

Are you really trying to argue that Liz Cheney is not a conservative?

That is almost as silly as Dope's if liberals lived in deep blue areas they wouldn't be liberal.

How is Liz Cheney not a conservative? What policy positions does she hold that are in any way liberal?

Liz Cheney is not a Trump Cultist. But she is most definitely a conservative.

Dope1: We’ve had a Trump Presidency and despite a lot of paranoid ravings on this board…it wasn’t anything like fascism.

Umm, c'mon.

1. Trump used threats of violence to try to regain power. Find me 11,000 votes or you could be in legal jeopardy. Stand back and stand by. Fight like hell or you won't have a country anymore. Full indemnity for police. His political opponents are vermin who need to be rooted out. Shoplifters will be shot if I'm reelected.

2. Trump says he'll consolidate power by only hiring loyalists in a second term. In October 2020, he issued an executive order to give himself the power to fire 50,000 civil servants.

3. Trump demonizes his enemies. Immigrants are “poisoning the blood of our country.” There will be a "blood bath" if he loses the election. He will deploy troops to deport 11 million immigrants. And he's promoted the Great Replacement theory.

4. Trump says he'll send his opponents to prison. Obama, Clinton, the Biden family, and anyone else who he deems an enemy. “As we completely overhaul the federal Department of Justice and FBI, we will also launch sweeping civil rights investigations into Marxist local district attorneys.”

5. Trump has undermined a free press for years now, calling them “the enemy of the people.”

So, yeah, he's been taking steps toward fascism for years and they've been pretty much in plain sight.

"Of course you don’t. But here’s the thing: *he does*, and so do most of these “antifacscist” posters chiming in.

Ever heard any of them denouncing all the riots when Trump was President?"

Dope,

You regularly post falsehoods about what other people think and believe. You have done it for more than two decades. I go back and forth on whether you are being dishonest when you do this or if you are just not smart enough to understand what others are saying. Which is it? Are you lying or just not capable of basic comprehension?

Because what you are saying is absolutely 100% false.

I (and almost every other poster that I know of here who was active during Trump's disaster of a presidency) regularly denounced anyone who engaged in violence or looting during the BLM protests. I regularly said anyone engaged in violence or looting should be arrested and charged to the fullest extent. I always said that for three reasons. One, I believe in law and order. Two, I think those engaging in violence and looting were taking away from the correct message of the 95%+ of the protestors who were there peacefully. Three, it allowed dishonest people like you to paint all BLM protestors as rioters and dismiss their message, despite that not being true.

No one here supported any looting or violence. Almost all here explicitly said it was wrong. To say otherwise is dishonest or stupid. Which are you?

"Or see them standing up for principles when Biden was siccing his DOJ on regular citizens?"

Wrong again. Laughingly wrong. I would definitely speak up if Biden ever did that. For one, it has never happened and I am quite sure there is no evidence of that ever happening. Biden rarely ever directs his DoJ to do anything. He respects an independent DoJ (please prove he doesn't, you won't). The few times he has mentioned the DoJ he does so in a way where he is talking about people who are breaking the law. So if you are talking about "regular people" who are bashing a cops face in with a broken flag pole, or a "regular person" threatening a school board member because Tucker Carlson put some nuttiness in his head, then those are people breaking the law and they should be brought to justice (that is what rule of law means).

"The irony of it all is that all these people railing against Trump don’t mind fascism at all; they just want it applied in the correct direction."

Nobody behaviorally projects like a nutter cultist.

I can give you multiple, concrete examples of Donald Trump explicitly using the power of the executive branch against his political enemies for political purposes. You have never had a problem with any of it. In fact, you often justified it or made excuses for it.

"We’ve had a Trump Presidency and despite a lot of paranoid ravings on this board…it wasn’t anything like fascism. ."

The definition has been posted in this thread. That you want to ignore examples of it under Trump doesn't make those examples go away. It just means you are willing to engage in your usual willful ignorance.

LOL. No.
That’s you being a liberal, which means you lie to yourself before you lie to anyone else.

Need I remind you of “Get in their faces”? Or the bringing guns to knife fights remark?

You lived that.

Just as you live it when the federal government’s power is used as a weapon against people you don’t like.

Go ahead and admit it; it’s not like it’s not obvious.

I still don't think you understand the point that's being made. Antifa is an idea, like "anarchism" is an idea.

A quick look shows me antifa is a "political movement". Like Nazi. Or communist. Saying antifa beat someone up or tried to burn down a police station is like saying communists beat someone up or Nazis.

Al, why do you get wrapped around such a stupid axle? When you have a group of people committing crimes, they HIDE their organization, and have no official stuff or official meetings. Its like the communist party members back in the day who were instructed that if they were ever asked by the police if they were members of the communist party that they were officially expelled from the party before they answered so they could answer no. That is why the question changed to "are you now OR HAVE YOU EVER BEEN a member of the communist party?"

These people wear the same black bloc rioting gear, mask their faces, carry black umbrellas together to hide their stuff from helicopters, hang out together, beat up people together, try to burn down police stations and courthouses together. Who cares whether they incorporated in Delaware or Texas? Who cares if you can buy their handbook at the local uniform supply store? They are antifa, they agree with each other, they believe in illegal violence and property destruction, and they hang out together while doing it. Change their name to "the knitting circle" and it doesn't matter, if the rest of the description is the same.

Booyah,
R:

Again, because Antifa isn't an organization. There's no "leader" of Antifa.

Is a flock of birds an organization? Looks pretty organized. So who cares whether it has a leader or bylaws or a recording secretary?

"Soccer fans roamed the streets destroying things." But soccer fans don't have a leader. Does that mean soccer fans are not real either? That they can't wander around and beat people up and burn things?

What indeed is the point?

please allow us common folk to use shorthand "Antifa" as the collection of bad people assaulting, intimidating and vandalizing somehow coincidentally in 50 cities.

So no. Unless you want us to call you fascist.

Well, wouldn't the proper response be

So no. Unless you want us to call you "Fa"

I would be happy to not join a non organization of "Fa" that are anti-Antifa. You can call me Fa anytime.

R:

Theres sort of a real point here. anti-fascist is a description of people that are against fascism. Antifa is a cutesy neologism that must be a proper noun because everybody seems to capitalize it and it isn't an actual word in any human language and it was what a group of anti-Nazis set up by German communists called themselves back in the 1930s.

So yeah, I'll call them Antifa, and you can call me and my ilk "Fa".

Deal?

it's accurate, ... to label him 'racist.'

So does that make you an Antira? Or does it make you an anti-racist? See like one looks like a cutesy neologism for a bunch of people who dress alike and roam the streets, nominally against racism but actually just beating people up and trying to burn things that aren't theirs. While the other sounds like an adjective.

R:

But that distinction is rather the point in many of these conversations. Joe Biden is frequently mocked for having noted that Antifa was "an idea," not an organization in the 2020 presidential debates - as with the Turley quote that moved the thread in this direction. But as you seem to recognize, that position is correct.

Joe Biden was equally loath to say anything bad about "Antifa" as Trump was to say anything bad about the Proud Boys. If Antifa is an idea, it seems to be the idea of roaming the streets beating people up (like putting them in the hospital beating them up) and burning courthouses and police stations. Why would Joe Biden not want to say something about an "idea" that bad?

And don't give me that stupidity about "Antifa, anti-fascist, see? They're the good guys!" I read 1984 and it is not a primer. The Ministry of Truth was not what it said it was.

I don't care how well organized they are. I'd like to see them arrested when they do that stuff no matter what you call them.

No. Says Mirriam Webster.

Pretty sure "Mirriam" has only one r.

NO.

You Next say, well BHM, that makes you Antifa,

Me, I guess it does.

No BHM. It makes you anti-fascist. Antifa is a political movement named after an organization started in Germany in the 1930s by communists to fight Nazis.

I am anti-fascist and anti-communist. But not Antifa.

R:

So no. Unless you want us to call you fascist.

Well, wouldn't the proper response be

So no. Unless you want us to call you "Fa"

No. Antifa serves as a RW punching bag and everything gets tossed into it. There are definitely antifa groups. But not every lefty group is antifa. From what I can glean the numbers are small and there's no big recruiting effort. They do exist. 95-98% of what they do is non-violent, but they will go toe-to-toe with Nazi like groups such as Oath Keepers, Proud boys, and regular Neo-Nazis, but that isn't a preoccupation. Because it's good to gin up the base, antifa becomes an over arching word for every group MAGA doesn't like that isn't Muslim. I haven't seen them toss Muslims in there yet.

So it gets overused and misapplied like fascism does. And no, no eal - don't create a bogeyman antifa that has a huge following, but if you do, I have no problem with someone then calling you fascist.

A quick look shows me antifa is a "political movement". Like Nazi.

A 'quick look' at what?

The history of Nazis in America is well-documented and easily researched. They have had a difficult time gaining acceptance -thank goodness- despite several changes to the party name and relocating the headquarters.

Through the years, American neo-nazis have tried various fund raising methods to pay for the trappings and activities of a real political organization to fund operations, finance election campaigns, pay for a headquarters, schwag, publications, etc.

There are no Antifa equivalents to George Lincoln Rockwell, David Duke, Rocky Suheyda. People identifying as Antifa in the US, AFAIK, do not have headquarters, party registration, secretary, treasurer.

The notion that there is an Antifa organization financed by wealthy Jews (George Soros) is baseless propaganda.

A quick look shows me antifa is a "political movement". Like Nazi. Or communist. Saying antifa beat someone up or tried to burn down a police station is like saying communists beat someone up or Nazis.

No - it's like saying communism beat someone up. Or Nazism. Communism is a political movement, while communists are people who follow that movement.

Al, why do you get wrapped around such a stupid axle?

Because the people who criticize Biden for saying antifa is "an idea" typically forget why he said that. In the last election, Trump was going around saying that the FBI should declare Antifa terrorist organization. Which is profoundly dumb. It's like trying to declare communism as a terrorist organization. It's an idea or a movement, not an actual organization.

There are individual organizations that advocate the ideas of Antifa, of course - and if any one (or more) of them was found to be a terrorist organization, you could declare that organization a terrorist organization. But you can't declare an idea or a movement to be a terrorist organization....because it's not an organization, so the laws don't apply to it.

Which is what Biden (and a lot of other Democrats) were pointing out. You can declare Antifa to be a bad idea - and you can describe a "fight" against Antifa as a rhetorical device, much as we have a War on Drugs or a War on Poverty. But you can't have a criminal prosecution against "Antifa," any more than you can indict "Drugs" - those laws apply to individuals or organizations, not concepts or movements or ideas. Which is why the distinction matters, and why the government response is the way it is.

RalphCramden: Joe Biden was equally loath to say anything bad about "Antifa" as Trump was to say anything bad about the Proud Boys. If Antifa is an idea, it seems to be the idea of roaming the streets beating people up (like putting them in the hospital beating them up) and burning courthouses and police stations. Why would Joe Biden not want to say something about an "idea" that bad?

He has. In an interview with Pennsylvania NBC News affiliate WGAL, reporter Barbara Barr specifically asked Biden if he condemned antifa.

BARR: “Do you condemn Antifa?”

BIDEN: “Yes I do — violence no matter who it is.”

Following the death of George Floyd on May 25, 2020, Biden wrote: “Protesting such brutality is right and necessary. It’s an utterly American response. But burning down communities and needless destruction is not. Violence that endangers lives is not.”

Biden addressed the nationwide George Floyd protests again in June in Philadelphia, condemning violence, looting, and the destruction of property.

And again in July in Wilmington.

Also, as we've discussed here before, significant escalations of violence during peaceful protests in some cases were sparked by White Nationalists, hoping to turn peaceful protests violent and get the media to blame BLM or 'antifa'. Please see the Umbrella Man and Boogaloo Boi Ivan Harrison Hunter, a Texas rightwing extremist, who bragged about helping to set fire to a Minneapolis police station before shooting 13 rounds at the building.

As for Dementia Don, he told the Jan 6 rioters he loved them, calls them patriots, and promises to pardon them if America is stupid enough to reelect him.

"those laws apply to individuals or organizations, not concepts or movements or ideas"

Not to put too fine a point on it, but if a person was to throw a bottle of water at a mass of street brawlers dressed in law enforcement surplus black helmets/goggles/boots, one is just as likely to hit a fascist as an anti-fascist.

That was not the case in 1930's Vienna when my relatives patrolled the streets of their community looking to brawl with rampaging Nazi thugs who were harassing Jewish merchants and neighbors. I've walked those streets with my sister, from the apartment to gymnasium, awed by neighborhood buildings that still have bullet pockmarks in the walls.

To my uncle's great disappointment, when they finally accepted him into the US Army, they stationed him in a New York warehouse with hundreds of crates of captured German documents to translate/decode. A good Catholic, what he deeply hoped for was infantry; to be a machine gunner and shoot Nazis.
I believe he was a little envious of my father who ended up in Nuremberg with the US Army medical corps, assuring that Nazis on trial lived long enough to hang.

Please see the Umbrella Man and Boogaloo Boi Ivan Harrison Hunter, a Texas rightwing extremist, who bragged about helping to set fire to a Minneapolis police station before shooting 13 rounds at the building.

During that same 2020 period, 'boogalos' tried to blame demonstrators for assault rifle and explosives attacks that resulted in the deaths and injuries of Northern California cops. The head killer was an air force guy with ties to right wing militias.

" Boogaloo militia extremist Steven Carrillo gets life sentence for murdering Santa Cruz Co. Sheriff's Sgt. Damon Gutzwiller-- Carrillo, of Santa Cruz, had ties to the "boogaloo" movement, a concept embraced by a loose network of gun enthusiasts and militia-style extremists who connected online. Experts say the group started in alt-right culture on the internet with the belief that there is an impending U.S. civil war.

Also in June, a federal judge sentenced Carrillo to 41 years in prison for killing David Patrick Underwood, a federal security agent who was attacked along with a colleague while guarding a federal building in Oakland."

https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/steven-c...

...with the US Army medical corps, assuring that Nazis on trial lived long enough to hang.

Too bad they slipped up with that nasty psychopath Hermann Goering. He should have suffered the hanging.

I had no idea we had so many Antifa fans on this board! Explains a lot.

Every time they riot they make up an excuse that some Proud Boy was there. It's amazing how the Proud Boys always know the exact moment to strike and cause mayhem. All the cosplaying Antifa folks are just there to groove, man.

What a joke.

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