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Author: wan123   😊 😞
Number: of 3320 
Subject: best way to hedge an SPY portfolio
Date: 11/25/2024 11:40 AM
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Would like to hedge with ETFS and timing, dynamic.
Thanks in advance.
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Author: Lee   😊 😞
Number: of 3320 
Subject: Re: best way to hedge an SPY portfolio
Date: 11/25/2024 2:18 PM
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Just my 2 cents worth... and I hope to contribute more numbers in the future.

A lot of bright people (thousands actually - considering all the hedge funds out there), have poured countless hours into this pursuit. Go into this knowing that it's not easy! You are competing with people who are paid (high) full-time salaries to find just such things.

If you take a step back and assume that you want to de-risk your portfolio, and if you assume a relatively high level of market efficiency, then what you would ultimately expect to make is the risk-free return. If you hedged all risk away.

In reality, depending on how fancy you get, you are more likely to make the risk-free rate minus some rather significant expenses. For example, people try using ETF's like TAIL to hedge (if you want to use an ETF), with some type of market timing overlay (plenty of discussion in past months/years around market timing / allocation strategies).

My personal experience with this stuff - moving a higher allocation to cash (tbills) when I either got sell signals, or felt like the market was just really stretched, was almost always more effective than some of the other more exotic things I tried. :-(

And sadly, if I added everything up, I could have likely just sat in SPY or BRK (long-term buy and hold), and been better off...

Just one person's observations... Genuinely wish I had a better answer!


Lee
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Author: opihiman911   😊 😞
Number: of 3320 
Subject: Re: best way to hedge an SPY portfolio
Date: 11/26/2024 2:59 PM
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There was a post long ago on the MF board called 'for the taxed - long RSP with hedge' that had a good strategy for employing hedges against a RPS holding in a taxed account when you don't want to sell because of capital taxes but want downside protection. Unfortunately the link I saved isn't working and datahelper search isn't of any use. I saved it for future use when I have a big enough index position or get tired or trading, but have never used it.

anyway here is the old link in case anyone can find the original post: https://discussion.fool.com/mechanical-for-the-tax...

Opihi
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Author: Aussi 🐝  😊 😞
Number: of 3320 
Subject: Re: best way to hedge an SPY portfolio
Date: 11/26/2024 11:05 PM
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This may be what you mentioned. The thread is long. This is the first post.

As some of you know, I am in the fortunate position of not having to
worry about capital gains tax, but here's a post for those in the US of A
where not only do they hit you with capital gains tax, but it's a higher
rate for things with short holds like the typical approach using quant and/or timing.

First, put 100% of your money in RSP, the equal weight version of the S&P 500, permanently. No trading, ever.
That's gotta be tax efficient, right?

So far we have a strategy that is giving 14.1% CAGR and DDDD3 risk metric 9.51%.
The test period here is late January 24 1978 through last Friday.

Now, let's take some of the sting out of it.
We'll hedge when the omens are bad, using 75% short Nasdaq 100 futures.
These aren't too bad tax-wise, for two reasons. First, I understand the
profits on futures are taxed partly at the long term tax rate even for short trades.
And second, the hedging isn't where most of the profits lie in this strategy anyway.

The first omen we try is hedging when NH-NL signal is negative.
i.e., hedge when there have been more new 52 week lows than new 52 week highs on the Nasdaq in the last week or two.
I use a version "vote on recent days" which doesn't trade too often,
so we're 75% hedged about 70% of the time. 3.5 trades per year on average.
That changes our portfolio to CAGR 18.18%/year and risk metric 4.22%.
Why the number 75% for the hedge? It gives the lowest risk metric.

But, for the real steadiness, does anybody remember the Hot24/Hot30/Hot36/Hot42/Hot48 strategy?
The market tends to do very well on average around month ends in winter months.
That's basically the superior six days in the better winter months,
with the variations just being the number of month-ends you consider good.
First post on that here http://boards.fool.com/for-the-lazy-man-28055010.a......
Most recent in the middle of this thread http://boards.fool.com/how-robust-is-it-when-nh-nl......
Since returns are so good in those days (bear market or not), and since
it costs essentially nothing to put your hedges on and off with futures,
we make the extra rule ALWAYS go unhedged during the Hot42, bull or bear.
That's the 6 bullish days around the ends of the 7 months Oct/Nov through Apr/May inclusive.
6 days per month, 7 month ends, 42 days per year unconditionally unhedged.
(the superior six days here are the last four of one month and the first two of the next).

So, our final rule is:
Long RSP at all times, no trading, no tax ever* except some on the dividends.
(*until you retire and start liquidating, anyway).
Hedge 75% short Nasdaq 100 futures during the times that BOTH of the following are true:
- NH-NL signal is negative (more new lows than new highs lately on the Nasdaq)
- It's not one of the Hot42 days.
Note that the long RSP position is more than adequate for the security to do
the hedging with futures. You can be $100000 long and $75000 short with a $100000 portfolio.
It sounds like a lot, but it's much safer than 100% long!
This brings the final tally to CAGR 20.1% and DDDD3 risk metric 3.01%.
You're unhedged (100% long) 74.7% of the time and 75% hedged the other 25.3% of the time.
You'd think there would be tons of signals per year, but not so.
The NH-NL bullish periods (avg 3.54 sigs/yr) often line up with the Hot42
bullish periods (always 14 sigs/year), so a lot of them cancel out.
e.g., going from one bullish to both bullish back and forth creates no trades.
The final result is an average of only 7.2 signals per year (3.6 round trips).

Note, I haven't disclosed the gory details of the exact NH-NL signal I'm testing,
but it's just one variant of what's used around here. No real secret sauce.
I have a bunch of different variations based on the general idea of "how
many of the last N days had more, or substantially more, new highs
than new lows on the Nasdaq". I took the 5 best variants and made a
meta-model that's bullish only if all 5 of those 5 are bullish.
Thus it's not critically dependent on any one tuning parameter that way,
and it's a tiny bit risk averse because it goes bearish if ANY variant is bearish.
But the variant isn't that critical. If you use the most brutally
simple variant exactly as I defined in my last post on the subject...
http://boards.fool.com/maybe-mungo-will-reiterate-...... (end of the post)
...you get CAGR 18.65% and DDDD3 risk metric 4.17%, 8.9 signals/year on average.

Of course not many people have a feel for what a DDDD3 risk metric means.
After all, I made it up myself. But zero risk means every single rolling
year return had a return of at last 10% and every single rolling quarter was at least breakeven.
The Nasdaq 100 has had a metric of 14.8% so the risk figures above are truly wonderful.
A word is worth but one one-thousandth of a picture, so here's what the last 35.4 years looks like:
stonewellfunds.com/TaxHedge.jpg
The colour change divides the pre-discovery and post-discovery period.
I came up with this a while ago.

The downsides to this approach:
(2) The biggie is you do have to check the NH-NL daily when it's anywhere near a crossover.
In fact most of the time you don't have to go near a computer because
it's painfully obvious if you're in a bull or a bear lately, but sometimes you do.
Of course the upside is you never have to look at an individual stock again!
(2) Plus of course the downside that the timing signals will never work
as well in real life as they do in a backtest. However they're
probably still going to add a lot of steadiness to your portfolio with
at worst a tiny drag on long run performance, or (as I expect) a net improvement.
(3) Lastly, hedging is emotionally difficult. One side of every hedge is always a loss.
The majority of the individual hedge trades will not be profitable and
it is critical that you always pay attention to the rolling year returns of
both long+short, NEVER to the trade by trade returns from the hedges alone.
This is particularly problematic when the market has been rising strongly
and fairly steadily for a couple/few years (as now), and it starts to look like
hedging is a dumb idea and it goes out of fashion just at it should come into fashion.
But the long term matters and the short term doesn't.
As long as you print that out and paste it above your screen you'll be OK.

Jim
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Author: rayvt 🐝  😊 😞
Number: of 3320 
Subject: Re: best way to hedge an SPY portfolio
Date: 11/27/2024 12:03 AM
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Is this the one you are talking about?
"Nasdaq 100 Micro (NMZ24) 20,978.00"

So to hedge a $100K long you'd short (sell) 3 contracts?


The biggie is you do have to check the NH-NL daily when it's anywhere near a crossover.

Not a big deal if you have a script that gets run daily to grab the NH & NL figures. Have it notify you at a crossover where you need to take action.


Lastly, hedging is emotionally difficult. One side of every hedge is always a loss.

The way to handle this is to have a brokerage account that is dedicated to this and only this strategy. Don't ever look at it except to trade when you get a signal.
That's how I did it when I was running a 6/3 options strategy.
Got a email from the broker after a few months expressing concern that 100% of my trades were options.

FWIW, Etrade is offering a $600 bonus for opening a new $100,000 account. Tastytrade is $2000 for $100K but new customers only.
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Author: opihiman911   😊 😞
Number: of 3320 
Subject: Re: best way to hedge an SPY portfolio
Date: 11/27/2024 12:26 AM
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Yes this is the post I was talking about.
Do you happen to have the link to the whole thread and discussion.

Opihi
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Author: jcbbaa   😊 😞
Number: of 3320 
Subject: Re: best way to hedge an SPY portfolio
Date: 11/27/2024 12:35 AM
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Here you have:

http://www.datahelper.com/mi/search.phtml?thread=2...
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Author: jcbbaa   😊 😞
Number: of 3320 
Subject: Re: best way to hedge an SPY portfolio
Date: 11/27/2024 1:00 AM
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Sorry for my mistake.

This is the right link on datahelper:

http://www.datahelper.com/mi/search.phtml?thread=3...
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Author: opihiman911   😊 😞
Number: of 3320 
Subject: Re: best way to hedge an SPY portfolio
Date: 11/27/2024 1:41 PM
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When I click on that link I get a 404 not found error.
Anyone else getting that error or does it take you to datahelper??

opihi
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Author: musselmant   😊 😞
Number: of 3320 
Subject: Re: best way to hedge an SPY portfolio
Date: 11/27/2024 2:55 PM
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J-
How long have been doing it with real money and what is the CAGR you got vs. the S&P?
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Author: Aussi 🐝  😊 😞
Number: of 3320 
Subject: Re: best way to hedge an SPY portfolio
Date: 11/27/2024 4:04 PM
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It works fine for me.

Aussi
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Author: AlphaDog   😊 😞
Number: of 3320 
Subject: Re: best way to hedge an SPY portfolio
Date: 11/27/2024 4:43 PM
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I was just sitting here testing the initial strategy in Excel from the beginning of 78 to present and I can't duplicate the results. I then looked at the return of shorting the NDX when the GTR1 NH-NL BC was below zero and ended up with $1000 going to $325. Perhaps I did something wrong but there are some oddities in that post. The post stated hedged 70% of the time, I calculated hedged 34% of the time which sounds reasonable. I would encourage anyone thinking of adopting this strategy to test it themselves before putting real money in it. I may do some more testing on that post as I get time. The strategy as presented seems wonderful...
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Author: lizgdal   😊 😞
Number: of 3320 
Subject: Re: best way to hedge an SPY portfolio
Date: 11/27/2024 5:34 PM
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This is my summary of Aussi's results (from 19780124):

14.1 CAGR and 9.5 DDDD3 with RSP.
18.1 CAGR and 4.2 DDDD3 with 75% hedged about 30% of the time.
20.1 CAGR and 3.0 DDDD3 with final rule.

NHNL was Bearish about 30% of the time, and so I changed what appears to be a typo. Just for reference (from 19780124, no friction):

        Screen         CAGR  SAWR  GSD  LDD  LDDD3  MDD  UI  Sharpe  Beta  TI  AT
SP500EqualWeight 13.6 8.5 20 13 9.7 -60 10 0.58 1.1 10 0
SP500EqualWeight_BCC0 15.1 11.3 16 10 6.3 -39 7 0.74 0.8 14 1
SP500EqualWeight_NHNL 14.0 9.3 12 6 4.8 -21 5 0.85 0.5 21 3


SP500EqualWeight_BCC0 goes to Cash when BCC=0.
SP500EqualWeight_NHNL goes to Cash when NHNL=0.

All of the risk metrics say NHNL is the lowest risk, except SAWR that prefers BCC0. SAWR captures sequence risk, and so there might be some period that was particularly bad for NHNL.

https://gtr1.net/2013/?~SP500EqualWeight:h63::sp50...(class.a,permco.a,step1)et1
https://gtr1.net/2013/?~SP500EqualWeight_BCC0:h63:...
https://gtr1.net/2013/?~SP500EqualWeight_NHNL:h63:...
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Author: Aussi 🐝  😊 😞
Number: of 12641 
Subject: Re: best way to hedge an SPY portfolio
Date: 11/27/2024 10:38 PM
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This is my summary of Aussi's results (from 19780124):

Actually, Jim's results. I was just reposting from the old board.

Aussi
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Author: mungofitch 🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝 BRONZE
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Number: of 12641 
Subject: Re: best way to hedge an SPY portfolio
Date: 11/28/2024 4:43 AM
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Actually, Jim's results. I was just reposting from the old board...

The problem with any dynamic hedging is that it is almost completely reliant on the predictive power of the market timing signal used. Most signals simply don't work after they have been invented and tuned, so most dynamic hedging strategies are bad.

My old post was no different--it made a lot of sense on the surface, but it's still bad if the timing signals it uses are bad. The timing signals suggested haven't been good. Into the same category might fall the fat that the equal weight S&P 500 beats the cap-weight S&P 500 in most multi-year stretches, but certainly not all of them, and certainly not lately.

The scheme had a second, much more subtle problem, which is a sneaky trap for a lot of hedged strategies--as with any hedged strategy, at any given time one side is making money and the other is losing. This is fine if the only thing you care about is the sum of the two values (which should be the case or you drive yourself crazy), but the problem is if one of them is making money on a mark-to-market basis only, while the other is losing money on a cash basis. In the scheme proposed, that is generally the case in rising markets: your RSP is rising in price but you're not selling it, while short futures contracts suck cold hard cash out of your account moment by moment. Even though your portfolio balance is doing fine, you would periodically have to sell bits of your "hold forever" long position to wipe out the negative cash balances it would create.

I have become much fonder of simpler solutions: if the forward return prospects of something you own, over the next couple of years, are not good, then sell some and raise cash. Unfortunately you can sit on cash for long periods, so the flipside is you have to be prepared to really pounce seriously when there are good deals available during a nice panicky crash. This is of little use to most investors as most investors don't have a clue what a given security is actually worth. It has taken me many years of study to reach the point of realizing that I'm mostly in that category too. Maybe only mostly in that category if I'm being vain?

To the extent that you are able to value a few things, you can at least try to avoid holding them when their valuation levels are too high to make sense. e.g., everybody loves Costco as a business and as a stock, and it deserves a premium, but I wouldn't hold it at these valuation levels (58 times trailing earnings) because if it merely returned to its own historically normal but lofty valuation levels (say, 26-31 times earnings) it would be a pretty big drop. Most things can't be valued this trivially, but it's an illustration.

Jim
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Author: rayvt 🐝  😊 😞
Number: of 12641 
Subject: Re: best way to hedge an SPY portfolio
Date: 11/28/2024 10:39 AM
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you can at least try to avoid holding them when their valuation levels are too high to make sense. e.g., everybody loves Costco as a business and as a stock, and it deserves a premium, but I wouldn't hold it at these valuation levels (58 times trailing earnings) because if it merely returned to its own historically normal but lofty valuation levels (say, 26-31 times earnings) it would be a pretty big drop.


Problem is, you can run into a "It's not me that is wrong, it is the market that is wrong." situation.

You can wind up selling BRK-B when it becomes overvalued at 325 and watch it tromp to 490.

I am reminded of an old quote that goes something like "Aren't you glad you are a momentum investor? You don't need to sweat about valuations and financials and the like, all you need to do is look at prices."
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Author: wan123   😊 😞
Number: of 12641 
Subject: Re: best way to hedge an SPY portfolio
Date: 11/28/2024 10:55 AM
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Jim, what if you used the system and took profit about once a year when you had long term profit gains in USA tax systeM?
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