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Trump’s intervention has persuaded congressional Republicans to abandon the border deal that they themselves had demanded. Their abandonment will now be a major political liability in the 2024 election cycle.

“The American people are going to know why it failed,” he declared in a televised speech at the White House. “I’ll be taking this issue to the country, and the voters are going to know that it’s not just a moment — just at the moment we were going to secure the border and fund these other programs, Trump and the MAGA Republicans said no because they’re afraid of Donald Trump.”

“Every day between now and November,” he added, “the American people are going to know that the only reason the border is not secure is Donald Trump and his MAGA Republican friends.”

Yep. President Biden gave republicans the opportunity to secure the border and resolve the backlog of asylum seekers here awaiting judicial review and they walked away in order to make it the campaign arrow Orange Jesus could point at president Biden. But anyone not in the cult will quickly see through the ruse and this will bite Trump on his big fat ass.

It's clear as day that republicans turned down the deal of the century at the guidance of the man who lost them the House, the Senate, and the White House, the biggest loser in modern politics, and soon to be the first convicted felon in U.S. history running for the presidency.

Sweet.

Maybe Trump wants you anti immigrant Liberals to remember, America is a nation of immigrants.

Trump employed immigrants at his properties.

You Liberals want to kick them out.

Yep. President Biden gave republicans the opportunity to secure the border and resolve the backlog of asylum seekers here awaiting judicial review and they walked away in order to make it the campaign arrow Orange Jesus could point at president Biden. But anyone not in the cult will quickly see through the ruse and this will bite Trump on his big fat ass.

Biden, and ever friggin' democratic member of Congress should be trumpeting this every day whenever they appear on any media outlet between now and election day. Biden has already started! If there is any upside to this, it would be that it could very well cause the GOP to lose the House, Senate AND White House in November!

Biden, and ever friggin' democratic member of Congress should be trumpeting this every day whenever they appear on any media outlet between now and election day. Biden has already started! If there is any upside to this, it would be that it could very well cause the GOP to lose the House, Senate AND White House in November!

Seems unlikely.

Oh, sure - it gives Biden something to say about the border. But generally speaking, you don't usually help your electoral chances by raising the salience of the issue that you're losing to the other side on. American voters overwhelmingly favor the GOP over the Democrats over the border. If you're out there "trumpeting" the issue relating to the border, rather than job creation or low unemployment or falling inflation rates or growing GDP (or protecting abortion rights or labor unions or anything else), you're mostly playing into the hands of the GOP.

Plus, let us not forget that a non-trivial portion of the Democratic base hated this bill. The GOP committed a bit of political malpractice by killing it so quickly, rather than letting a little opposition gin up on the Left. That way the narrative might have been a bit more that the bill died from bipartisan opposition, just like similar efforts in 2007 and 2013. I understand why they did that - letting the process go on for a while would be utterly inconsistent with their theory of the election and the Democratic party - but they probably could have let at least a few progressive Senators and the Congressional Progressive Caucus get on the record that they were going to insist on big changes to the bill. Regardless, you're never going to get the CPC "trumpeting" that they were willing to adopt the most punitive immigration bill in two generations in order to get their foreign aid priorities.

Politically for Biden and the Democrats, the bill was worth doing because they want/need the border issue to fade in salience and move to the back burner, so that the 2024 election would be on other issues. Since that didn't happen, it's probably not the best move to join the GOP in their efforts to center the border as the prime issue in 2024.

Politically for Biden and the Democrats, the bill was worth doing because they want/need the border issue to fade in salience and move to the back burner, so that the 2024 election would be on other issues. Since that didn't happen, it's probably not the best move to join the GOP in their efforts to center the border as the prime issue in 2024.

Yeah, there's that I guess. But isn't the message that the GOP "is against solving the border crisis" worth something? Just like saying that the GOP wants a national abortion ban?

It's clear as day that republicans turned down the deal of the century at the guidance of the man who lost them the House


But just look at the Republicans on this board (or really probably more accurate to say MAGAs, because the old GOP would never be supporting Trump). They are tying themselves in knots to justify this crass political move by Trump to keep the base inflamed about the border troubles RATHER than actually taking actions to SOLVE the problems.

It's absurd.

Here's Trump's new ad on illegal immigration.

https://twitter.com/charliekirk11/status/175495539...

But isn't the message that the GOP "is against solving the border crisis" worth something?

I would think so. But just look where the MAGAs get their 'news'. As we see right here on this board, if you are snuggled down in the comfy right wing mediasphere you don't have to deal with reality. So how many will even hear it, or if they do, they will just rationalize it all away.

American voters overwhelmingly favor the GOP over the Democrats over the border.

---------------------

I suspect this summary is implicitly assuming a 50/50 split of voters between Democrats and Republicans and reflects the normal horserace positions the media reports as a timesaver that assumes people view Democrats as "weak" on immigration and Republicans as "tough" on immigration. The country is not split 50/50 between Democracts and Republicans. The party affiliation split in America right now is roughly ----> Independent=45%, Democrat=28% and Republican=25% (don't ask me where the 3% went, I'm just reporting what Gallup found in January 2024). The individual bullet points of immigration (either in perception or actual policy) do not likely break in the Republican direction when looking beyond the branding and shorthand. The vast majority of ALL Americans are easily in favor of these outcomes:

* drastically reducing ILLEGAL immigration (duh)
* minimizing time-in-country to days or weeks for anyone claiming asylum who isn't found ELIGIBLE for asylum
* minimizing time-in-country to hours or days for people just swamping a port of entry or sneaking in somewhere else

I suspect that a majority of Democrats and Independents are in favor of

* adding funding / personnel to courts and staff to catch up and handle whatever arrival rate occurs
* adding funding / staffing at crossing points (legal and otherwise) to increase interception rates

knowing that there is no way to accomplish the first two bullets without spending more money and allocating more legal resources for processing.

Any thinking voter also realizes a growing immigration "twilight zone" problem requires a fix. The US is allowing people to enter to apply for asylum as expected under Geneva Conventions obligations then finding a) they ARE NOT eligible for asylum here based on US law and b) their country of origin refuses to take them back (China).

I suspect more liberal Democrats are in favor of:

* more relaxed criteria for proving asylum eligibility
* higher asylum quotas per year
* higher yearly work visa totals
* higher yearly totals for green cards for permanent immigration

If one attempts to be charitable, one might say that Republicans and ultra-MAGAs are okay with LEGAL immigration but in reality, they are a split brain on this. Many large businesses may SAY they want more LEGAL immigration because they need low-wage workers but in reality, I suspect many large business PREFER the status quo because illegal immigrant labor saves them money. Illegal immigrants work without many workplace protections, likely work for less than going wage rates and employers likely fail to pay required payroll taxes on those wages -- all net positives for business owners.

In reality, I suspect the vast majority of ultra-MAGA Republicans really want NO immigration, legal or illegal or asylum. They think a continual influx of immigrants is watering down the precious "blood" of 'Muricans'. Ignoring the actual physical reality, this same segment wants whatever Trump tells them to want and Trump wants NO deal and has explicitly stated he wants the chaos of the status quo as an issue more than a solution that improves ANY issue ANY Republican CLAIMS to care about.

I do NOT think the overwhelming majority of Americans think Republicans had a superior position on immigration over the past few years. I am reasonably sure at this point that the 75% of non-Republicans are very clear as of 2024 that the Republican position on immigration is no policy at all, only chaos and blame in election cycles.


WTH

Yeah, there's that I guess. But isn't the message that the GOP "is against solving the border crisis" worth something? Just like saying that the GOP wants a national abortion ban?

Eh, not that much. You want to nail the GOP on the national abortion ban because the electorate generally sides with the Democrats on that issue. Obviously people differ greatly - but generally speaking, more voters will say the Democrats best represent their position on abortion than Republicans. So you want them to be thinking about abortion when they go into the voting booth. With the border, it's the opposite.

You can claim that the GOP "is against solving the border crisis," but it's not likely that too many voters will believe that. Oh, sure - they voted this bill down. But the GOP also gets to campaign, and they'll certainly take the position that the bill wasn't strong enough to do the job. That's probably wrong (and disregards the fact that irrespective of whether this bill is "strong enough," it's the strongest bill that might ever get out of a Congress where the Democrats have more than 40 Senators). But that won't matter. If you're arguing, you're losing.

Run on abortion and low unemployment and "democracy" and how terrible Trump is. Use the border bill as a defense against attacks on that issue, but don't center it in your campaign.

I suspect this summary is implicitly assuming a 50/50 split of voters between Democrats and Republicans and reflects the normal horserace positions the media reports as a timesaver that assumes people view Democrats as "weak" on immigration and Republicans as "tough" on immigration.

No, it's just based on what voters say:

When asked in this poll who was better at handling issues of immigration, the largest share of Americans – 41 percent – named the Republican Party. Another 29 percent said Democrats did a better job of managing this issue. Overall, another 10 percent said one party was as good as the other on immigration, and 20 percent of Americans said neither party did a good job – a sense of dissatisfaction that has grown substantially over nearly two years.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/where-voters...

When political parties are losing on an issue, they will generally retreat into arguments about how the voters actually like lots of specific things about their policies and dislike specific positions in the opposing party. Which is all well and good - but in partisan elections, voters will base a lot of their perceptions on the "brand" of the party rather than granular policy points. The GOP has a decent brand on immigration, and the Democrats have a terrible brand on that issue. Which is why the GOP is hammering, hammering, hammering on that issue - and why Biden tried to force his party to swallow a punitive immigration bill to make the hammering stop.

Albaby

To highlight the alleged hypocrisy, Democrats could certainly seize upon the comments from the likes of Lankford and Sens. Mitt Romney (R-Utah) and Bill Cassidy (R-La.), or the Border Patrol union’s endorsement. They could highlight more unvarnished comments from the likes of Rep. Troy E. Nehls (R-Tex.), who has said repeatedly that he doesn’t want a border deal to help Biden’s approval rating. They could also point out that Republicans have instead focused on impeaching Mayorkas — for things some of their allies have said simply aren’t impeachable — and failed even at that, at least initially.

But that argument most often involves a fair amount of inference and wrangling with the complicated legislative details and politics. Generally, casual voters will just see a problem and blame the incumbent president for not solving it. WAPO

Oh, sure - they voted this bill down. But the GOP also gets to campaign, and they'll certainly take the position that the bill wasn't strong enough to do the job.

------------------------

Apparently, many of this same voting bloc would turn down a lottery win that awarded them $500,000 because they wanted to win $2,000,000 and $500,000 just isn't enough.

These are not difficult issues to communicate in sound-byte friendly terms. Anyone who wants to play in national politics needs to seriously review these issues and bogus framing and actively prep for it to shoot it down any time it comes up.


WTH

Yeah, there's that I guess. But isn't the message that the GOP "is against solving the border crisis" worth something? Just like saying that the GOP wants a national abortion ban?

Have you forgotten who created the border crisis? Biden opened our southern border on day one becoming president. The American people have not forgotten.

It’s laughable Biden is going to campaign every day till November Trump and MAGA didn’t secure
‘my border’.
Don’t you love it when the illegal aliens entering America are laughing and wave ‘thank you Seńor Biden’. ‘The cartels helped me to get here and I can start earning my keep joining a moped gang beating up on defenseless women and robbing them.’
Yep, the American people see every day the assault on America by the illegal aliens and Biden
is letting them get away with it.

That's sort of what I was thinking. Use the BP Union and the statements of Rep senators to push back on the immigration, clearly painting it as the fault of Reps that nothing is changing. Perhaps albaby is correct not to make it a centerpiece, but we know MAGA will try. We need to prepare counter-fire salvos.

As they say, "it's the economy, stupid". Well, the economy is going gangbusters (by every metric I've been seeing lately). Start highlighting that.

Have you forgotten who created the border crisis? Biden opened our southern border on day one becoming president. The American people have not forgotten.

Yeah, they're forgetting that Biden campaigned on reversing all of Trump's border policies. He made a big deal about a slew of executive orders he signed and policies he reversed.

From a messaging point of view, all Republicans have to do - as Trump does in the ad I posted in this thread - is juxtapose Biden's angry statements about the border with the crisis we have today.

Trump's ad is straight fire.

That's not correct. Biden did not create it, and even if Trump wins tomorrow he cannot fix it. The executive cannot fix this. Only the legislative, and they just punted their opportunity to make even a little progress. Much to the glee of a segment of the progressive left, whom hated this bill.

You've been gone for a while. Read the exchange between BHM and albaby a few weeks ago. That was all hammered-out then. Or just ask BHM. He accepted what albaby explained, and asked "what now". That latter question has been answered by recent events (i.e. "nothing now, everything will continue as it has unabated and unstoppable").

That's not correct. Biden did not create it, and even if Trump wins tomorrow he cannot fix it.

Biden loudly announced that he was going to be the opposite of Trump - less racist, more welcoming, all of that.

Immigrants saw that and headed north. albaby's analysis ignored the incentives thrown out by the Biden administration.

Apparently, many of this same voting bloc would turn down a lottery win that awarded them $500,000 because they wanted to win $2,000,000 and $500,000 just isn't enough. - WYH

-----------------

Especially if I have to give back the $500,000 in three years.

Irrelevant. He can say anything. He said he would close the border the day he got the authority, but you made clear you didn't believe him.

The reality of the law is that he couldn't do anything. He actually extended Title 42 as long as he could. And he tried a stunt similar to Trump, and the courts shot it down (just like they did with Trump). The executive is powerless without the legislative giving them the power to do something. And that just died.

Whomever is POTUS next year will face an unlimited number of asylum-seekers without any tools to limit it. You were concerned about 5K per day. Now there will be no limits ever. If it's 50K in a day, nothing we can do. Trump promised a lot of things, and kept almost none of those promises. He's now going to say "I'm going to fix the immigration system", but that's a lie. He can't. Not without congressional action, which will never happen now.

But it does give you a campaign issue for the foreseeable future. And you made the day of the progressive wing (whom wants to address the immigration issue by addressing the problems in the source countries, not at the border). They hated this bill.

Irrelevant. Nope. Very much germane to the situation. Words matter.

And Biden's are all on tape.

He said he would close the border the day he got the authority, but you made clear you didn't believe him.

And neither did literally millions of immigrants.

But it does give you a campaign issue for the foreseeable future. And you made the day of the progressive wing (whom wants to address the immigration issue by addressing the problems in the source countries, not at the border). They hated this bill.

The progressive wing wanted from this bill what they've always wanted - "Comprehensive immigration reform", which is progspeak for a mass amnesty. Not just of Dreamers, but for everybody.

You guys MUST have seen the insufferable yard signs that say "No human being is illegal"? (Seattle is infested with them). Well, that means that you wave a wand and make those folks citizens. That's what progressives want.

Not without congressional action, which will never happen now.

Well now we see who really cares about national security, don't we? The democrats have badly misread the situation.

Perception is everything in politics, and the hiding behind the finer points of the law is going to get you nowhere with the broader electorate other than a very loud FIX IT.

Biden and his team honestly thought they could ignore the border and it wouldn't cost them among their core constituency groups which for him are

1. Suburban white women
2. Blacks
3. Hispanics

Well as it turns out Blacks and Hispanics don't really care for illegal immigration as the polling is showing. So the democrats can get all stampy-foot and declare they'll never work with the Republicans on border security...and they can keep bleeding voters in places they can't afford to lose them.

You won't believe this but I'll say it anyway. If democrats don't get 80%+ of the black vote, they start losing states...

...like Illinois.

He actually extended Title 42 as long as he could. - 1pg

================

Not really. Biden ran on a promise of ending Title 42, I have posted that video here before.

Then after election, he tried to end Title 42, but was prevented from doing so by the courts. Here is how it was reported in USA Today (be wary, USA today is not BITEME certified)

President Joe Biden initially kept Title 42 in place after he took office, then tried to end its use in 2022. Republicans sued, arguing the restrictions were necessary for border security. Courts had kept the rules in place. But the Biden administration announced in January that it was ending national COVID-19 emergencies, and so the border restrictions have now gone away.

https://www.usnews.com/news/us/articles/2023-05-09...

You're not "hiding behind the finer points of the law". It's the law. Period. Unless we devolve into an autocracy, the law matters.

As for national security, both sides are concerned about that. I wouldn't say most Republicans aren't (maybe a few aren't...like Trump). This isn't much of a national security issue. People entering US soil and requesting asylum is not a national security issue. The "gotaways" arguably are. We'll have those no matter what you do; people whom have no intention of requesting asylum. That used to be the majority of those crossing the border, but that hasn't been true for at least a decade, probably longer.

As for losing votes, maybe when Trump isn't running. For now, most of those votes are quite secure. Trump has alienated them bigly.

Also, living in AZ, I can tell you that Latino folks are not fond of all the attempts to "seal the border". In fact, many (most?) didn't like this bill. You do know that the Hispanic Caucus was completely excluded from the negotiations, yes? Because they weren't going to like giving up anything.

You've been gone for a while. Read the exchange between BHM and albaby a few weeks ago.

Thank you for the suggestion. I do have some free time now but I am still the main
care giver for DH and don’t have the time to go over the thread.

By proclamation Biden reversed Trump’s border policies that opened the way to millions of border crossings by illegal aliens. I won’t forget it and neither will most American voters.
Trump has already declared when he becomes president again, there will be mass deportations (I hope) of the illegal aliens. That will be a start to normalize America, if that can ever be again after Biden’s %&^#@ failed presidency.
I will vote for Trump on that promise.

As for national security, both sides are concerned about that.

Riiiight. That's why this is just now becoming an issue 3 years into Biden's Presidency.

This isn't much of a national security issue. People entering US soil and requesting asylum is not a national security issue. The "gotaways" arguably are.

What's the ratio of gotaways to the what we've caught?


Also, living in AZ, I can tell you that Latino folks are not fond of all the attempts to "seal the border". In fact, many (most?) didn't like this bill. You do know that the Hispanic Caucus was completely excluded from the negotiations, yes? Because they weren't going to like giving up anything.
https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/ariz...

But surveys suggest Biden’s campaign will be an uphill battle: a cluster of polls has former Trump with an edge over Biden in Arizona, and that nationwide, he is losing ground with Latino voters. Nationwide, Biden trails Trump among Hispanic voters, 39% to 34%, according to a recent USA TODAY/Suffolk University poll. That’s a precipitous decline from 2020, when he trounced Trump among that demographic by a two-to-one margin.

Biden got 63% of the Hispanic vote in AZ last time.

Yes, Republicans sued. But by mid-2022 the "emergency" was over. We had a vaccine, people weren't dying by the tens of thousands, etc.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/may/13/ti...

But Biden is now replacing Title 42 with an arguably tougher, more restrictive policy. His administration on Friday started implementing a rule barring migrants from asylum if they don’t request refugee status in another country before entering the US.

I believe this is the attempt Biden made that was overturned by the courts.

...but I am still the main care giver for DH and don’t have the time to go over the thread.

Yeah, I get that. 1poorlady had to get cancer surgery in April of 2019...COVID was jamming the hospitals, surgeries were being canceled. But hers was considered emergent. So they did it outpatient, instead of three or four days in the hospital. I ignored pretty much everything except her for the next few weeks (and then again during her chemo).

That was certainly more important than keeping up with the news, or a message board.

But you can take my word for it, albaby and BHM had a very illuminating discussion. Very civil, lots of honest questions and factual answers. It was good.

Trump can promise all he likes, but neither he (nor anyone else) will be able to deliver. Part of the issue is that they aren't "illegal". Coming to US soil and requesting asylum is entirely legal. And there are no limits, unless you can evoke Title 42 during a health crisis (which Trump did). There is no health crisis, so the courts will shoot down any attempt at invoking Title 42. I know you will vote for him anyway, but just know that if he promises to do anything, it's a lie. He can't. Not without congressional action. And that just died. So we will have unlimited asylum-seekers, legally, and there is nothing anyone can do about it (except Congress).

Also, living in AZ, I can tell you that Latino folks are not fond of all the attempts to "seal the border". In fact, many (most?) didn't like this bill. You do know that the Hispanic Caucus was completely excluded from the negotiations, yes? Because they weren't going to like giving up anything.

SNIP
"Hispanics go hard Democrat there all the time. But they saw me as a regular person, and when we got talking, a lot of people told me things aren't going well," the 49-year-old said in an interview from her home city of Yuma.
The predominant concerns for many voters were high food and gas prices, job prospects and the quality of schools rather than issues around minority rights, she added.
Pena's surprise win underscores how a growing number of Hispanic voters are switching their allegiance to Trump and Republican candidates in Arizona and other election battleground states, according to interviews with five Republican and Democratic analysts.”

https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/phil...

I am reasonably sure at this point that the 75% of non-Republicans are very clear as of 2024 that the Republican position on immigration is no policy at all, only chaos and blame in election cycles.

Truth.

geso how many will even hear it, or if they do, they will just rationalize it all away

That's how it is. All the talk about not trusting Biden started on social media before it came up here.

That's how it is. All the talk about not trusting Biden started on social media before it came up here.

“Joe Biden's lies are legendary. He's still the same dishonest plagiarist he was 33 years ago.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCJMF7mflGE

LM: “Joe Biden's lies are legendary. He's still the same dishonest plagiarist he was 33 years ago.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCJMF7mflGE

Just in case you don't remember, I don't watch u tubes unless from a good source. Donald Trump is not a good source.

And humorously, Trump is much, much, much more legendary a lair. Trump's captured that title for all time.

LurkerMom “Joe Biden's lies are legendary. He's still the same dishonest plagiarist he was 33 years ago.”

Huh.

Well, I prefer a president who borrows phrases from a British Labor leader, like Biden, to one who borrows phrases from Hitler, like Trump, but then maybe that's just me.

And as for Trump having the nerve to criticize Biden for lying, what an absurd projection that he has conned his cult into embracing. There has literally never been another politician who has lied as often and as egregiously as Trump. Never.

Claiming that “millions” of votes were stolen in the 2020 race, and that the election was rigged, is perhaps the worst and most damaging lie he has ever told but there is an endless stream of others, like other countries are sending migrants from “mental institutions” into the US and the judge in the sexual abuse and defamation trial brought by writer E Jean Carroll had prevented him from producing evidence, or that pro-choice Democrats want to kill the babies after they are born, to the price of bacon, to ballot stuffing, and on and on and on.

Trump told over 30,000 lies in his four years as president, an average of more than 21 per day, yet the cult claims that "Biden's lies are legendary."

While fabrications have long been a part of American politics, only Trump has lied to incite a mob to violence to try to overthrow democracy and remain in power after losing an election.

But to the Trump cult that lie pales in comparison to Biden saying when President Donald Trump walked across Lafayette Square to a church, he held the Bible upside down.

You may be back but you're still in a cult.

Just in case you don't remember, I don't watch u tubes unless from a good source. Donald Trump is not a good source.

No I don’t remember. I don’t read every post nor follow every thread.
If you did not watch the video why comment on it when you are not aware of the many prestigious and credible people commenting on Biden’s lies and plagiarism?

And humorously, Trump is much, much, much more legendary a lair. Trump's captured that title for all time.

There is on record fifty plus years of Biden’s lies and plagiarism.
Just recently Biden made claim he met with the former President of France who actually has been dead for 28 years.
Was that a lie or another Biden dementia moment?

More and more often Biden is telling stories from the long ago past which is an another sign of his dementia.

You may be back but you're still in a cult

Why do you think the word ‘cult’ has any profound meaning to me?
Using the word cult is just another dem buzz word talking point which is over used and boring.

You should be more concerned with Biden’s mental decline and not capable to
serve another term. Unlike Biden, Trump does not talk to nor see dead people.

LM: “Joe Biden's lies are legendary. He's still the same dishonest plagiarist he was 33 years ago.”

To make that statement about Biden and then turn around and praise/support Trump...? Trump is a documented prolific serial liar.

Trump is a documented prolific serial liar.

And by saying that it exonerates Biden’s documented fifty plus years of lies and plagiarism? LOL.

Run on abortion and low unemployment and "democracy" and how terrible Trump is. Use the border bill as a defense against attacks on that issue, but don't center it in your campaign.

Point taken.

All the talk about not trusting Biden started on social media before it came up here.

All the talk about not trusting Democratic politicians really kicked into gear with Newt Gingrich.

Biden is just the latest in the line. Doesn't matter who it is. The R machine will extend the distrust propaganda to any new candidate with a D after their name.

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