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I was recently gifted with a knife from Miura Knives. I know basic care, but was going to ask them about sharpening. Turns out they have a video. In that video they revealed I need to sharpen to 15deg bevel. But it was interesting to watch. He removed a lot of metal on his whetstone. But maybe his knife was duller than I ever allow ours to get.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7F0OzzkXbE&t=4s

I'm always worried about my bevel. I try to hold it at a uniform angle, but it's tricky. I have no doubt my hands waver a bit as I move the knife across the stone. How can they not? I'm not a machine. I did find it interesting that he sharpened the knife in sections. I have always used the tip to hilt stroke.

Congrats on the knife. I really enjoy using a good knife if the kitchen. The art of knife sharpening is an infinite rabbit hole. There are many compromises and trade-offs to be made. Various techniques are hotly debated and the core philosophies held by the Believers are often contradictory. After a lot of study and becoming very confused I've settled on a few principles/techniques.

One trick to find the edge angle is to color the edge with a Sharpie. That way you can see where you are removing metal as you sharpen. This will tell if you if your angle is correct.

You can quickly find the approximate edge angle by holding the knife vertical, that is at a 90 degree angle to the whetstone. Tilt it half way is 45 degrees. Half of that is 22.5 which is about the typical edge angle for western kitchen knives. A skosh more than that and you are at 15 degrees. Stacking two quarters under the edge of the spine will get you pretty close to 15 degrees as well.

Western knives typically have a primary bevel with the tip at about 18-22 degrees. Same on both sides. The more acute the angle, the sharper the knife, but it gets duller faster.

Japanese knives can be lot different. Some knives like a yanagiba (sushi) knife have a single bevel (only one side of the knife, like a chisel) and very acute angles, on the order of 10 degrees. This means the knives are left or right handed depending on which side the bevel is one. Some knives like a traditional santoku have asymmetric bevels, which again means they are right or left handed. And some have the traditional symmetric bevel like western knives.

If that weren't complicated enough, most knives come from the factory with a secondary bevel (sometimes called a micro bevel) right on the very edge that is 1–2° steeper than the primary bevel. This makes the edge sharper and improves durability. You can create the secondary bevel very easily on a whetstone. Simply sharpen as normal, and then raise the knife 1-2 degrees and make a few passes. You don't even need to raise a burr, or maybe just barely a burr.

An alternative--some say superior--to the secondary bevel is a convex (rounded) bevel that blends the two in a smooth arc. With some skill, you can create a convex bevel with a whetstone. Murray Carter has some Youtube videos showing how to do this.

I prefer the convex bevel, however I do it on a belt sander. Belt sander sharpening is a heretical offense to some in the sharpening community because it can add heat to the blade, but I make quick passes and wipe the knife on a damp cloth after each pass. I've never detected it heating up. Some claim it still heats up enough on the very edge to remove the temper, but what evs.

I got a one inch belt sander from Harbor Freight for $50. You can get all the belts up to extremely fine grit (including leather belts) from Lee Valley. I started off with some old knives to practice with, but I got the hang of it after about the second knife. You can get any knife incredibly sharp this way. I use a ceramic hone before I use the knife every time. I only need to sharpen about once a year, maybe once every two years.

That's my vastly over simplified take on it. Enjoy the sharpening rabbit hole. One you start, it goes to infinity.

I have a feeling that most people have tendency to "over sharpen" their Japanese knives. The steels that they tend to use are far harder than those typically used to make European and American blades. That means that a properly sharpened Japanese blade could last years before it require re-sharpening on a stone. The flip side is that, when it finally does need sharpening, it is requires significant time and technique to get it back to its original razor edge.

The story of my first Japanese knife (actually, every knife I have bought since then has been Japanese):

My wife and have always been amateur "chefs". In that guise, we had the obvious collection of German and French cooking knives curated during more than a decade. While on a trip to Japan in the early 1980's, we wandered into a knife ship in Nishiki Market in Kyoto, we visited a knife shop. They spoke o English and we spoke no Japanese. I asked the price of a good-looking mid-sized knife and was taken aback. I thought I had made a decimal place math error when it worked out to $400 (remember, this was in the early 1980's when a buck was still a buck). Sheesh, I was just looking for a souvenir! When I made it known that it was out of my budget, he brought over a "petite" knife with around a six inch blade made off high-carbon steel for about $60. While this was a lot more than I anticipated for a cheap knife (and more than I had paid for any of my "good" knives), I paid for it. Instead of throwing it into a bag (like I expected), he went to the back of the shop and spent about twenty minutes sharpening it, during which time his wife performed a tea ceremony for us. Afterwards, he explained how to sharpen it (including selling me a rather expensive fine-grit stone).

My wife, who hates heavy knives, grabbed it as her go-to and used it daily from then on for well over a decade before it lost it's incredible razor-sharp edge. While the blade rather quickly became discolored (not corroded, but no longer mirror-shiny), it is capable of keeping its edge better than my fancy-smhantsy modern steel knives. When it f9inally needed sharpening, despite my owning the appropriate stones, I chickened-out and had it professionally sharpened at a NYC Japanese restaurant/knife supply shop (Korin" https://www.korin.com/japanese-knives?srsltid=AfmB... ).

Nowadays, she is more likely to use a light-weight Kyocera ceramic santuko knife I got her, which because of its size is more versatile, butt the high carbon knife's edge is still superior.

Jeff

My wife and have always been amateur "chefs". In that guise, we had the obvious collection of German and French cooking knives curated during more than a decade. While on a trip to Japan in the early 1980's, we wandered into a knife ship in Nishiki Market in Kyoto, we visited a knife shop. They spoke o English and we spoke no Japanese. I asked the price of a good-looking mid-sized knife and was taken aback. I thought I had made a decimal place math error when it worked out to $400 (remember, this was in the early 1980's when a buck was still a buck). Sheesh, I was just looking for a souvenir! When I made it known that it was out of my budget, he brought over a "petite" knife with around a six inch blade made off high-carbon steel for about $60. While this was a lot more than I anticipated for a cheap knife (and more than I had paid for any of my "good" knives), I paid for it. Instead of throwing it into a bag (like I expected), he went to the back of the shop and spent about twenty minutes sharpening it, during which time his wife performed a tea ceremony for us. Afterwards, he explained how to sharpen it (including selling me a rather expensive fine-grit stone).



I love that story! My wife and I are also amateur chefs and enjoying cooking. However, she has informed me that we have enough knives. Still, we have informal plans for a ski trip to Japan and I would love to go knife shopping.

Until about 1873 in the time of the Meiji Restoration consumption of red meat was mostly banned in Japan. So their cutlery was designed for seafood and vegetables (with specialized knives for each), hence the high strength steel and very sharp edges. This type of knife is not great for breaking down things with bones and gristle however, and generally too brittle for lots of western-style cooking tasks.

Out of the need to cut beef came the gyuto (which means "cow blade") which is a chef's knife that sort of blends Japanese and western knife philosophies. Later came the santuko ("three uses" or "three virtues") which as the name suggests was designed to cut meat, fish, AND vegetables, instead of having one knife for each.

Versatility is fine, but what fun is that? My ideal knife block would have a western-style chef's knife, santuko, nakiri (rectangular vegetable knife), yanagiba(sushi knife), a deba (fish butchering knife), Chinese cleaver, regular cleaver, a brisket knife, bread knife, and some paring knives.

To start with, anyway.

Great information :-)

I left off the final part of the story. After sharpening the knife, instead of throwing into a bag, he put it into a box and then gift-wrapped it so beautifully, that I hated to tear it open when we got it home.

Yup - I know the feeling of too many knives. After retiring the European ones, we've taken quit a few trips to Japan and brough back an eclectic group of Japanese knives. That said, I'd say 90%+ of my knifing (with the exception of slicing bread and slicing roasts) is done with a Global (brand name) nakiri. Not my favorite handle, but it balances well, is kept razor-sharp and is essentially a long chef's knife missing the pointy end. It slices and chops vegies, meat, fish, whatever. It's steel is not only hard enough to hold an edge, but tough enough to do the breaking-down of small birds. When I need a paring knife, I use a sub-$5 ceramic one. If I have to whack something bigger, I have a Chinese cleaver (souvenir of an early 1970's trip to Hong Kong). Before I got hooked on the nakiri, I ended up primarily using gyutos and ended up with a number of them (some, just because they were interesting to look at). While I have a couple of yanagibas and a deba, I only use them occasionally (out of guilt, I guess).

While my first knife came from a shop in Kyoto, and while some of my knives were picked up in department stores (including some Global ones bought in Sydney Australia at about half-price due to currency exchange niceties) it can be real fun to buy them in Tokyo, on Kappabashi-dori (or just Kappabashi, "Kitchen Town"), a street between Asakusa and Ueno packed with shops for restaurant supplies, high-quality knives, beautiful ceramics, and quirky plastic food samples (the type that mimic real food that are found in the windows of nearly every restaurant in Japan.

Knives have "personalities" the same as pots/pans do. All of my Japanese knives (except for the handful of Globals picked up in Sydney) were picked up first deciding what style I wanted and then looking for the best value in the quality class I was looking in - so none of them are of the same manufacturers. Similarly, while some of our pots are of common manufacturers, they were all picked up individually based on their material properties as cooking vessels rather than who the manufacturer was. Interestingly, on occasion, I have taken advantage of "lifetime" warranties on cookware. Meyer (Analon and Circulon) as well as Le Creuset have both been extremely accommodating, but interestingly I had a bit of a challenge with All Clad.

Jeff

I encountered Miura Knives somewhere while I was home. Maybe a program, or reading about quality knives. Don't remember exactly. I learned about Rockwell scales, and AUS10, and other details. But I made a mental note. Managed to visit them briefly while in Japan, but not enough time to really shop. So we didn't get one that visit. I was planning to go on a future trip, but 1poorkid beat me to it.

The blades are just steel. Not stainless. So, as soon as you use it, you should wipe it. Don't let food or water sit on it. Otherwise you will get the patina you described because it is oxidizing (i.e. rusting). Especially pay attention to acidic foods like onions. Cut them, quick rinse, and towel dry immediately.

The oxidizing will also affect the cutting edge, causing accelerated dulling.

There are a number of metallurgical situations when oxidation is actually protective (think about the protection aluminum oxide provides to the otherwise highly-reactive aluminum).

Another case is the protective oxidation layer (typically a "mottled grey" not the same as "red" rust) that high-carbon steel knives tend to acquire.

From Gemini AI:

What Patina Does (The Good Stuff)
Protects Against Rust: Patina is a layer of stable, oxidized iron that forms on the steel, preventing further, harmful corrosion (rust) from forming and damaging the blade.

Enhances Edge Retention: High-carbon steel can be hardened significantly, allowing it to hold a razor-sharp edge much longer than stainless steel. The patina helps maintain this performance by protecting the steel from rust, which would compromise the edge.

Creates a Unique Look: Patina creates beautiful, varied colors (blues, grays, purples) that tell the story of the knife's use, making it unique to the owner.

Patina vs. Rust (The Bad Stuff)
Patina: A desirable, protective discoloration that seals the steel.
Rust: Harmful, flaky corrosion that pits the steel, degrades the edge, and can damage the blade's integrity.

How It Relates to the Edge
A well-developed patina means less rust, which means the edge stays cleaner, sharper, and performs better. You'll sharpen less often, as the carbon steel holds its edge longer anyway.

In Summary
Embrace the patina on your high-carbon Japanese knife; it's a sign of a well-used, well-loved tool that's actively protecting its superior edge. Just remember to wipe it dry after each use to keep it from turning into actual rust.

Jeff

Largely irrelevant reply:

My haircut lady (actually my wife’s hair dresser who also cuts my hair) has a pair of shears she bought in Japan … for over $500. For a single pair of scissors. Holy Chihuahua!

She says there’s nothing like it, and if she lost them she’d happily buy another. When it’s time to be sharpened, she mails it back to Japan and they do it there, because …. ???

I don’t know how often that happens; rarely I presume, but I didn’t think to ask, I was so gobsmacked at her paying up for a simple pair of scissors. Personally I’d just get something at Costco and be done with it.

The discussion here about knives has been educational. Thanks all for that.

I was so gobsmacked at her paying up for a simple pair of scissors.

Maybe a pro would notice the difference. I certainly wouldn't. She uses the scissors multiple times per day.

A knife is different because I use them a lot. So I notice the difference between our basic knives, our JA Henckels chef, and our new Japanese knives. Sharpness and frequency of required sharpening. Our basic knives need sharpening every month or so. The Henckels can go several months (with minute touchups). Haven't had the Damascus Japanese long enough, But it's a harder steel, Damascus, and will hold the edge better.

If you cook a lot, it's probably worth getting one or two really good knives. Usually a chef or santoku, and a petite.

If you cook a lot, it's probably worth getting one or two really good knives. Usually a chef or santoku, and a petite.

Yes, nothing frustrates me more when cooking than bad knives. Mine are not of the quality spoken here, but relative to the furnished rentals we stay at, mine tend to be fabulous, so I bring a large and a small of my own as you mention. A pair of really good scissors too. That's all I use at home anyway. The big knife blocks filled with knives are an almost useless waste of counter space.

IP

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