Post New

Year One was interesting. I knew I would drive less...but how did that turn out?

"My" car (I do most of the driving, so I driver "her" car more than she does) only had about 2000 miles added last year, and half of that was a round trip drive to see Mom.

The gas cost (her car is an EV) savings is probably $750-1000/year. The reduced maintenance, who knows exactly, but I was driving maybe 6500 mi/year when I was still working, so an oil change less a year or so, and less tire replacements, standard stuff.

I could probably keep it the rest of my life and never get near the wear out point. Though I still want a '68-'69 Torino fastback (red, with a 429, of course).

We got her EV about a month before I retired. The maintenance costs last year were $0. It costs about 5-10 cents/mi to charge it at home, at the slightly better rates the power company offers for EV owners charging off peak. That is phenomenally cheaper than any gas car. The variance in cost is simply a function of whether it is being driven hard in very cold weather, when it gets about 2.2 miles/kwh, or being babied in the summer, when it gets about 4 miles/kwh.

We could probably keep that an awful long time also. Drove it about 10,000 miles last year, and the battery isn't showing a bit of apparent range loss. We charge it to 80% in almost all instances, as that extends the battery life over the years. We got it from a dealer that had used it as a loaner, and it had 5300 miles at purchase, and like many nearly new EVs got it for a song being not-quite-new, at about $26,000 less than a truly brand new one. If you're thinking about getting a car, a 2-ish year old EV is probably a stunning bargain, and I think you'll never go back to primarily gas after going EV. It is fast as hell, too...I can neither confirm nor deny it is faster than a C7 (one generation old) Corvette.

The home chargers aren't cheap. Hardware and install ran to about $1400. Our state gave a partial rebate on that which knocked off about $600. It is delightful, a true game changer, to never go to a gas station and have to smell gas on your hands or whatever. I've done about 97% of the charging at home, with maybe 2-3 longer trips needing a DC fast charger. It is a Genesis, which charges very fast, so the time factor on the road is pretty much a nothingburger.

I think the home charger is a big draw for any potential buyer. It has worked flawlessly for a year, and doesn't start charging until the cheap rate kicks in. Or if you want it to charge right away, the app will cause it to do so if you override it.

We're thinking about a minivan for a road trip friendly ride. Won't be an EV, this time, if we do this - the VW is cool and well rated, but the range is not that grand and it doesn't charge as fast as the Genesis.

like many nearly new EVs got it for a song being not-quite-new, at about $26,000 less than a truly brand new one. If you're thinking about getting a car, a 2-ish year old EV is probably a stunning bargain

Think one more step ahead.

The buyers of NEW EVs will eventually catch on that they will lose a ton of money in the first 1-2 years due to the massive depreciation. So soon virtually nobody will buy a NEW EV.
So there won't be any 2-year old EVs available.

For there to be 2 year old cars, somebody needs to buy new ones.
But nobody will, so there won't be any used ones in 2 years.

That's assuming there will be new ones available to buy. All the auto manufacturers have been writing off BILLIONS off their EV business.

Ponzi schemes always work out good for the first people in.

----------------------------
Oh yeah ... retirement board. No daily commutes to work. That alone was 11,000 miles a year for me.

We drove only 5000 miles last year, looks like under 2500 miles this year what with flying instead of driving to visit the kids.

5000 miles at 25MPG is 200 gallons of gas. At $2.50 that's $500 for gas in the year. $600 at $3.00.gal.
An EV at 10 cents/mi is $500. At 5c/mi that would be $250.
Annual EV savings of $0 to $350 in a year.

In retirement you don't get an EV to save money on fuel. You get it for fun.
For fun is why we got a 2-seater BMW Z4 convertible. Don't care about it needing Premium gas or $500 tires.

We're thinking about a minivan for a road trip friendly ride. Won't be an EV...

FWIW - a couple of EV possibilities

1) DS2 and his wife wanted an EV for them, two little kids, two big dogs. They ended up with a Kia EV9 which they've been very happy with. I know they made a 250 mile trip home from a wedding without recharging (more white-knuckle than I would have been comfortable with).

2) Rivian is releasing the second-gen R2 this month - a slightly smaller, cheaper SUV than the R1 (a good overview of the current launch in today's WSJ: https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/rivian-r2-ev-ma... )

Agree that lightly-used EVs are far and away a better bargain. I bought my retirement Rivian pickup @ 18 mo old and 20-25% discount from sticker. (I could have made it 25-30% below sticker, but the vehicle for sale was exactly what, when, and where I wanted it.) Have had it for a year and a half and love it.

FWIW, IF the company survives the current grim environment for EVs in the US (I think it probably will, but could easily be wrong), it's in a good place to beat the competition to robust Level 4 self-driving. Less talk, more cattle than Tesla, so to speak)

--sutton

The buyers of NEW EVs will eventually catch on that they will lose a ton of money in the first 1-2 years due to the massive depreciation. So soon virtually nobody will buy a NEW EV.
So there won't be any 2-year old EVs available.

For there to be 2 year old cars, somebody needs to buy new ones.
But nobody will, so there won't be any used ones in 2 years.

That doesn't make any economic sense, rayvt.

You make good points but I think you have something getting in the way of clear thinking on this particular issue. Price elasticity and demand are intrinsic and EVs are not some sort of magic exception. They provide a utility and have well understood advantages and disadvantages compared to internal combustion vehicles. They have been around for decades and there are are companies around the world making them profitably.

Maybe post some follow up information about how much they depreciate vs gas vehicles with actual figures? I think you'll find the difference is not large on an annual or total cost basis. Pretty modest considering the economies of scale of production. The people buying them are pretty aware of this, since they are equally smart as you even if they disagree with your conclusions.

Talking about EV write-offs without acknowledging US policy changes in the last year is a bit disingenuous. I think the manufacturs know they can't globally compete with Chinese EVs and are giving up, and hoping to continue to ride the Chicken Tax and sell $100k pickups to people that can barely afford them.

Why can't you just say you don't like EVs and be content with that?

Think one more step ahead.

The buyers of NEW EVs will eventually catch on that they will lose a ton of money in the first 1-2 years due to the massive depreciation. So soon virtually nobody will buy a NEW EV.
So there won't be any 2-year old EVs available.

For there to be 2 year old cars, somebody needs to buy new ones.
But nobody will, so there won't be any used ones in 2 years.

This is like the logic we used when the teacher told us there would be a surprise pop quiz sometime this week. It’s knows as the Surprise Quiz Paradox.

We knew it couldn’t be Friday, because then it wouldn’t be a surprise. And it couldn’t be Thursday, because if it couldn’t be Friday, then Thursday is the last possible day, so by Wednesday we would know it was on Thursday, and it wouldn’t be a surprise.

And of course if it couldn’t be Thursday, it couldn’t be Wednesday because on Tuesday we would know it must be Wednesday but it can’t be because it wouldn’t be a surprise…

And so on. Therefore, the teacher can never give a “surprise” pop quiz.

But they did, so I will have to assume that some people will be buying new EVs (or leasing) and then they will come up in the used market at some discount.

Thank you for coming to my Ted talk.

I first heard that joke as the Grand Vizir telling a prisoner that his execution would be on one of the next 7 days, but if he could tell him on the morning of the day he would go free. The crafty prisoner used that logic to go free.

Maybe post some follow up information about how much they depreciate vs gas vehicles with actual figures?

From google:
"EVs often lose 35%–40% in the first year and around 50% down by the end of the second year."

"On average, a new gas-powered car depreciates by approximately 30% to 32% over the first two years of ownership."


Why can't you just say you don't like EVs and be content with that?

I don't have a dog in that fight. Don't care one way or the other.
We have a 2017 Honda CR-V that we paid $31,000 for.
55,000 miles = avg $6100 miles a year.
Carvana just offered me $16,500 for it.
47% depreciation in 9 years.

Unless it gets totaled or stolen, that will be the last car I will own in my lifetime.

We've toyed with the idea of leasing an EV for a couple of years. Also about leasing a Mini. Just for the fun of those cars. Two years would squeeze out all the fun.


Talking about EV write-offs without acknowledging US policy changes in the last year is a bit disingenuous.

By that, do you mean the Feds stopped taxing waitresses to give money to millionaires to by electric cars with?


Ford, GM, Stellantis, Honda, Volkswagen all have taken Billions of chargeoffs of their EV cars. Not a sign of a thriving market.
The only cheap EVs are made in China and can't pass US safety requirements. Pretty soon the only one left will be Tesla.

I never liked driving far or dealing with traffic. Didn't mind driving itself. The most I ever did was around 20,000 miles for a couple of years when I commuted from my parents place to my first job out of college. After that it was more like 10-12K most years.

Right now I have a 2018 Hyundai Elantra that just crossed 60,000 miles. Being retired means very little driving. Most people put on miles due to the 5x a week daily commutes to/from work.

People usually don't think of the costs involved with having/buying a car.

I think my numbers are pretty low but say:

1. $35,000 for a car and if you keep it for 10 yrs that is about $10/day
2. Insurance can easily run another $5 a day (sometimes $10)
3. Maintenance can be all over the place but probably another $2/day
4. Gas $2/day

For most people having a car easily runs $20/day, $600 a month or over $7K a year.

Sure there are ways to reduce it a bit, but based on cars I see people driving, it could easily be much higher.

Our little accident is running about $10K just for our car with the damage just to the front of the car and almost all of that on the driver's front grille/headlight.

Ideally I'd like for us to go to one car at some point. We did that for about 6+ months when I left my car back east after going back to work for a few months. A few minor annoyances but certainly doable.

We do have one hybrid car but no EV. Hybrids I think are a nice middle ground although the price most of the time never worked for me based on my shorter commutes (mileage wise, not necessarily time wise).

Rich
Rich

Have you seen the depreciation on 2 year old BMW's?

Maybe I'm just weird. Depreciation is irrelevant. It's not capital equipment to be expensed on my taxes**. I drive it until it dies. It's not an investment, it's a tool for transportation. Just like my Kitchen Aid mixer is a tool for baking (mostly). I don't worry about the depreciation of that, either.

I don't give a crap about depreciation. I care how about vehicle reliability, mileage/range, and some key features.

If I were shopping for a new car today, I would be motivated to search EVs because of rising fuel prices. That's happened a few times. I recall when gas hit $5/gal, dealers' lots were full of super duty trucks they couldn't get rid of (trade-ins), and you couldn't test drive a Prius because they were sold before they even got to the dealership (yes, I tried). If the prices continue to rise over a few months, I would expect the market for EVs to grow relatively quickly. Right now people are thinking it is "just a spike". Maybe so. I don't agree, but only time will tell. I think they are going to be higher for quite a while.



**In that example, it would be relevant if I could do that (e.g. using the vehicle for work), honestly.

Have you seen the depreciation on 2 year old BMW's?

YES!!!

The one we bought had just come off a 3 year lease, with only 12,000 miles on it. Barely broken in. BMW said the first oil change was due at 15,000 miles.

We paid just under half the price of a new one.
We drove it for 12 years and sold it for about half what we paid for it.

There were over 73,000 EVs sold in the USA in February, so it isn’t quite a dead industry, nor is it a Ponzi scheme.

The buyers of NEW EVs will eventually catch on that they will lose a ton of money in the first 1-2 years due to the massive depreciation. So soon virtually nobody will buy a NEW EV. So there won't be any 2-year old EVs available.

For there to be 2 year old cars, somebody needs to buy new ones.
But nobody will, so there won't be any used ones in 2 years.

You know what other cars have massive depreciation in the first 1-2 years? Lexus, Infiniti, Cadillac, Mercedes, Lincoln...

Somehow they remain in business.

The home chargers aren't cheap. Hardware and install ran to about $1400. Our state gave a partial rebate on that which knocked off about $600. It is delightful, a true game changer, to never go to a gas station and have to smell gas on your hands or whatever.

This is the unexpected joy of home charging. You don't realize what a hassle it is to go to the gas station until you don't need to do it.

You know what other cars have massive depreciation in the first 1-2 years? Lexus, Infiniti, Cadillac, Mercedes, Lincoln...
Somehow they remain in business.

Those are luxury cars. There'll always be a luxury market.

Eric Hines

<< The buyers of NEW EVs will eventually catch on that they will lose a ton of money in the first 1-2 years due to the massive depreciation. >>

Nonsense.

There will always be people who are poor at arithmetic that will buy a new car.

I was very happy to find a 2020 Model Y on Tesla's website for $25,000 ($21,000 after the used EV tax credit.) Many thanks to the original owner who ate the first $40,000 in depreciation.

I'm 2 weeks short of owning the Tesla for a year. My Tesla app tells me that I've driven it 2,500 miles and spent $64 charging it, all that off the 120 volt plug in my garage. The fact that it has "Performance Boost" and boasts a 4.2 sec 0-60 acceleration doesn't seem to show up in the charge bill.

intercst

<< Maybe I'm just weird. Depreciation is irrelevant. It's not capital equipment to be expensed on my taxes**. I drive it until it dies. It's not an investment, it's a tool for transportation. Just like my Kitchen Aid mixer is a tool for baking (mostly). I don't worry about the depreciation of that, either.

I don't give a crap about depreciation. I care how about vehicle reliability, mileage/range, and some key features. >>

So do I. But if I can find someone else to pay the first few years of depreciation on a reliable used one ($40,000 of depreciation for the original owner of my Tesla), so much the better.

intercst

This is the unexpected joy of home charging. You don't realize what a hassle it is to go to the gas station until you don't need to do it.

I pooh-poohed this benefit … until I got an EV. Under normal circumstances standing around while you fill up is merely a waste of time and occasionally smelly hands from gas residue on the handle; during cold weather, a storm, or high winds it’s truly a pain (I now realize.) Plugging in in the garage? Priceless.

Of course if I want that truly time wasting experience i can recreate it just by finding a public charger and standing around for a while, but why?

Good ideas often get some pushback at first. Automated elevators were resisted at first because people wanted “someone” to push the button, as it always had been done. Shopping carts were unsuccessful until the inventor hired actors to push them around so customers could see how much ore convenient they were. I myself, didn’t realize the life changing quality of cable internet’s “always on”, and thought “dialing in to AOL” was just fine, thank you very much.

Sometimes you just have to be there for it. I have a sister-in-law who just got a smart phone two years ago. “Why would I need that?” she asked. Then she found Waze, and it was a revelation.

<< There were over 73,000 EVs sold in the USA in February >>

Sure, but most of them were Teslas with GM a distant second.

I wouldn't buy a car model unless there is at least a million units in service. I want to be able to get parts at Autozone when the vehicle is 20 years old.

intercst

But if I can find someone else to pay the first few years of depreciation on a reliable used one ($40,000 of depreciation for the original owner of my Tesla), so much the better.

Buying used can be good. Low mileage vehicles usually demand a premium, often almost as much as new. Without the warranties (since you're not the original owner). High mileage vehicles can be a lot cheaper, but many of the parts may be approaching end of life (i.e. requires service soon).

Pros and cons.

<< Buying used can be good. Low mileage vehicles usually demand a premium, often almost as much as new. Without the warranties (since you're not the original owner). >>

I got a one-year, 12,000 mi warranty from Tesla on the used vehicle purchase. They also did a phenomenal job detailing the vehicle. You couldn't tell it from the new ones in the showroom.

intercst

Buying used can be good....

The last car we bought was used. They wanted a premium for it, but I had done my homework and knew there was a similar one a few miles away. When we started getting pushback on our offer, I stood up, thanked her for her time and turned to DH saying "Let's go get the other one at XYZ dealership. I turned to the salesperson and said we had hoped we could give them the business as they had taken the time to show us the vehicles, but we won't overpay.

We got the deal we wanted. It was a fair one. It helps not to be terribly insistent on exactly what you want. Flexibility rules here.

IP

I was very happy to find a 2020 Model Y on Tesla's website for $25,000 ($21,000 after the used EV tax credit.) Many thanks to the original owner who ate the first $40,000 in depreciation.

Not quite $40,000. The 2020 Model Y (LR AWD) sold for $53,990 early on and then was reduced to $50,990. So the depreciation was somewhere between $25,990 and $28,990 (according to google and their AI). Of course $25,000 may be more or less than the seller received from Tesla for their trade-in.

And if the original buyer bought that 2020 model in late-2019, there were still some of the old tax credits remaining (assuming they made the cut rule-wise).

Not quite $40,000. The 2020 Model Y (LR AWD) sold for $53,990 early on and then was reduced to $50,990. So the depreciation was somewhere between $25,990 and $28,990 (according to google and their AI). Of course $25,000 may be more or less than the seller received from Tesla for their trade-in.

Another data point.

In 2025 I bought a 2022 Model Y LR AWD from Tesla for $21k after the $4k EV tax credit.

The price of a new one during 2022 fluctuated between $62,990 to $67,440.

After backing out the $4k credit someone still ate $38-42k in depreciation, so call it $40k.

The parts argument is founded in flawed assumptions. You can buy studebaker parts and they haven’t been made in 58 years.

As for “new” there are a few hundred thousand of the Hyundai
Ioniq 5/kia ev6/genesis gv60 platform out there. Several already have over 300,000miles and the batteries are still performing well.

They don’t need much work, anyway. Tires, brakes. No oil, no timing chain, o alternator, no water pump, no radiator, etc. as a mechanical engineer, the most costly, complicated, and labor intensive part is out of the equation completely.

I want to be able to get parts at Autozone

True, the big problem with Teslas is STILL the unacceptable wait to get parts and service for repairing damage, now even 8 years after they went mass production with the model 3. Musk needs to let it be a real car company and give it up to a CEO who will turn it into one. Right to repair.

At least we can get service for tires and wheels and the 12v battery anywhere.

But the other benefits of a full EV, I will never go back to ICE. Maybe hybrid.

FC

<< The price of a new one during 2022 fluctuated between $62,990 to $67,440. >>

That's the confiscatory pricing I was remembering (Tesla could charge what it wanted during the Covid pandemic) I just thought it started earlier.

Mark is correct. The 2020 models weren't getting that kind of upcharge. The original owner of my vehicle purchased it in August 2020.

intercst

<< The parts argument is founded in flawed assumptions.>>

Not really. There is no Federal law that dealers must support a vehicle after its warranty period expires. By custom, most manufacturers still provide parts for 7 to 10 years after production stops.

It's going to be easier to buy parts for vehicles with larger fleets in service. I doubt Autozone is selling Studebaker parts.


intercst

You should have seen the problems I had getting parts for our Austin America.

It was a great car, made in England for the US market. But a few years after we bought it they stopped selling them here.

One of the U-joints failed and it took many weeks to get a new one. Had to order it though a Jaguar dealer in Chicago. The only place we could get it from.

The brake master cylinder half-failed. Great design, dual independent brake system, left front/right-rear and right front/left rear. An internal cotter pin broke on one side. No replacement master cylinders available in the entire world.

The engine & carb was likewise great. That engine ran for more than 20,000 miles with 4 PSI oil pressure. 4!!!

We eventually sold it with a rusted out floor to a neighbor for $100. When it rained the kids in the back seat got their shoes wet. I had nightmares about one of them stomping on the floor and braking through and falling into the road.
He riveted some sheet metal over the floorboard and continued to drive it.

My uncle has been restoring cars and building hot rods since 1958. He had a garage that encompasses an entire city block. He’s done work for me, and taught me, since the ‘80s. He owns something like 30-50 classics from the 1939s on. There are parts for 99% of cars, but you are free to believe as you wish.

It's going to be easier to buy parts for vehicles with larger fleets in service. I doubt Autozone is selling Studebaker parts.

I’m sure they’re not. On the other hand:

Yes, you can absolutely still buy Studebaker parts. A thriving market exists for New Old Stock (NOS) and reproduction parts, supported by specialized vendors like Studebaker International, Fairborn Studebaker, and Stephen Allen Studebaker Parts. Common items, along with harder-to-find components for restoration, are available through dedicated suppliers, eBay, and online forums.

Like ssm, my Grandfather had a warehouse full of old cars, probably 30 or 40 of them. Everything from Model A’s to Model T’s, Bearcats, a Bugatti and even a Cadillac from the 1930’s. This was in the late 1950’s, and he lent them to the town (Deckerville, Michigan) for the annual 4th of July parade, so they were all running. He owned a factory and was a subcontractor for Ford, had a fascination with cars, and kept a building full of them. I remember climbing around on them when we would visit. (His biggest product was making the Ford logo in chrome, sometimes with the oval around it, sometimes not. “His” badge went on millions of cars.)

When he died Grandma sold the whole lot then moved the factory to Alabama where “labor was cheaper.” She was bankrupt in a couple years.

<< My uncle has been restoring cars and building hot rods since 1958. He had a garage that encompasses an entire city block. He’s done work for me, and taught me, since the ‘80s. He owns something like 30-50 classics from the 1939s on. There are parts for 99% of cars, but you are free to believe as you wish. >>

I don't doubt that there's a "bespoke market" in auto parts for restoration. I'm talking about getting cheap parts to keep a 20-year-old Toyota Camry or Ford truck going.

Just before I sold it last year, I replaced the front bank camshaft position sensor in my 2004 V-6 Nissan Altima. The part cost $12.

intercst

I don't doubt that there's a "bespoke market" in auto parts for restoration. I'm talking about getting cheap parts to keep a 20-year-old Toyota Camry or Ford truck going.

Just before I sold it last year, I replaced the front bank camshaft position sensor in my 2004 V-6 Nissan Altima. The part cost $12.

Our 2004 Toyota Sienna required a "new" rear differential. Cost us more than the book value of the vehicle, but well worth it. Had to hunt down a part at a junkyard. We had two mechanics pricing it out, and one turned out to be several hundred dollars less than the other, as they shopped it around in multiple states and had the part shipped to them.

We looked at buying new, but this is our kayak-mobile. With rear seats down, middle seats out, we can throw our two kayaks in the back and not worry about putting them on top of the van. New Siennas no longer can take the middle seats out, totally ruining the utility of the vehicle, which has moved us multiple times and used many times for trips to the builder supply store for full sheets of drywall for renovations. In addition, we live in a state with a personal property tax for vehicles, and a new $50K vehicle would cost us about $2K/year in taxes alone. That of course would depreciate with the vehicle, but no thanks.

IP

There are parts for 99% of cars, but you are free to believe as you wish.

Depends on the part. I have a 98 Cherokee 4x4. I'm starting to have issues getting parts. So far, not for the engine. But I can't get a part for the door locking mechanism. I had to replace an engine part (actually, transmission) a year or two ago, and it was difficult to find. It wasn't OEM. Eventually it's not worth it to manufacture or stock such parts because there isn't enough demand to justify keeping it in inventory.

Just before I sold it last year, I replaced the front bank camshaft position sensor in my 2004 V-6 Nissan Altima. The part cost $12.

Seems like that isn't outrageous...$12 to make your car go. I just remembered another part...our Jeep had a fender-bender a few years ago. Literally that's all that happened. They couldn't find a bumper, nor the pieces that serve as shock absorbers behind the bumper. The bumper includes the plastic pieces on either side of the center of the bumper, which was the problem. They replaced the metal, but plastic bits and the little shock absorbers/mounts they had to do what they could. No parts.

If your battle axe sienna ever goes to car Valhalla, the Kia Carnival has a third row that folds completely flat in a similar way, and the second row is removable.

<< Seems like that isn't outrageous...$12 to make your car go. >>

Exactly!

That V-6 3.5 liter engine appears in many different Nissan and Infiniti models. There is a large installed base and several after market parts manufacturers making parts for it. That's why the part was only $12.

https://www.drifted.com/vq35de/

intercst

<< Seems like that isn't outrageous...$12 to make your car go. >>

Exactly!

That V-6 3.5 liter engine appears in many different Nissan and Infiniti models. There is a large installed base and several after market parts manufacturers making parts for it. That's why the part was only $12.

Also, for something like an electronic sensor, I want a new part. Not something pulled from a 20-year-old vehicle rusting in a junk yard lot.

https://www.drifted.com/vq35de/

intercst

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