Post New

That was fast:

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2025/01/26...

"Colombia's president has just announced he will offer his own presidential plane to assist with deportation flights, to ensure a 'dignified' return," FNC's Jon Scott reported. "It's unclear if this will change President Trump's plans to retaliate against the nation, which includes a 25% tariff on all Colombian goods."

The thing to note here is this - other countries shouldn't be able to export their criminals up here.

That's really what this is about, and these other outfits know it.

"Colombia's president has just announced he will offer his own presidential plane to assist with deportation flights

Ha..President Trump plays hardball.

Ha..President Trump plays hardball.

Yup.
What the democrats forget is that...countries have an obligation to take back their citizens.

If this is true then "we're gonna deport people to Columbia, and make Columbia pay for it" is kinda true :)

There's no evidence that countries are exporting criminals to the USA, just Trump's lies.

Here's a paper on Visa Sanctions and more. China began taking citizens back under the Biden Administration.

And note this: While the violent death rate may have dropped (in Venezuela), a national survey conducted by OVV in mid-2023 found that about 78% of residents believed crime had stayed the same or gotten worse. :)

https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF1...

Washington — President Trump on Sunday vowed swift and punishing retaliation after the Colombian government over the weekend blocked the arrival of deportation flights from the U.S., objecting to the Trump administration's efforts to use military planes to deport migrants.

There's no evidence that countries are exporting criminals to the USA, just Trump's lies. - Lapsody

---------------

"No evidence".

Many of them have face and neck tattoos showing their allegiance to various gangs. I don't think these guys were coming to pick crops but got criminalized after they got here. You don't create a lengthy rap sheet for crimes committed here if you were not already a criminal when you arrived.

Maybe your quibble is the assertion that "Colombia is exporting". There may be some truth to that if the criminals are making their trek despite Colombian government sincere attempts at intervention. In that case Trumps accusation would be better expressed as "Columbia is failing to take effective measures to interdict Colombian criminals attempting to leave Colombia for the USA."

There may be some truth to that if the criminals are making their trek despite Colombian government sincere attempts at intervention. In that case Trumps accusation would be better expressed as "Columbia is failing to take effective measures to interdict Colombian criminals attempting to leave Colombia for the USA."

Even if Columbia isn't taking any measures to prevent people from leaving the country, they're still not "exporting" anyone. Most countries don't impose any restrictions on people leaving the country (other than security states like North Korea). Here in the U.S., a citizen faces no restrictions at all if they want to leave the country - they're free to go anywhere that they can get into. It's not Columbia's job to prevent people from leaving.

Even the Righties I know aren't onboard.


BUT, maybe y'all are seeing why I've said - be it The Religion of Peace, or the neck tattoo folk -- - give em ID, cash, and drop em off in Austin, Bethesda, New Hope PA, San Fran, Paris, and Hamburg.


Raise my taxes to draconian levels to do it.

"No evidence".

Many of them have face and neck tattoos showing their allegiance to various gangs

You think gangs don't cross boundaries on their own volition? They must be in cahoots with the state because Fearless Leader says so?

faces no restrictions at all if they want to leave the country - they're free to go anywhere that they can get into. It's not Columbia's job to prevent people from leaving. - albaby

-------------

Very true. They are sovereign and have the right to run their county as they think best.

Also the word "exporting" is misused by Trump but that doesn't negate the fact we MAGAs, not sure about the libs, but the MAGA's anyway expect cooperation on the USA deporting their criminal citizens back to their country.

It is also equally true that is not the USA's job to provide them tariff free access to the US economy. Also it is not the USA's job to write them a $400M plus aid check year after year.

Trump's and the MAGA movement's "America First" policy requires that any deal provides a benefit to the USA and ideally a mutual benefit to both parties. Trump wants them to accept deportation flights and cooperate in attempts to reduce or eliminate the flow in the first place. Even if they cannot keep them all in their own prisons they can cooperate in others ways such as providing intelligence. What are the Colombian's offering?

Trump is very effective at finding ways to get the other party to seriously consider the benefits of cooperation.

Here in the U.S., a citizen faces no restrictions at all if they want to leave the country - they're free to go anywhere that they can get into. It's not Columbia's job to prevent people from leaving.

I think there may be some restrictions on travel. For example:

Linus Pauling, a Nobel Prize-winning chemist, faced restrictions on travel due to the Internal Security Act of 1950, which broadened the government's power to limit the travel of political dissidents1. Despite these restrictions, he was eventually granted a passport to travel to Sweden and receive the Nobel Prize in Chemistry2.

I think the law states that a US citizen has to depart and arrive in the US with a valid US passport. I think the US government can withhold the issue of a passport.

Also, the Court has rules that due process is required prior to restricting travel.

However, as a practical matter, there is no passport control when leaving the country, so if a person has citizenship in another country they can leave and the government would not know. However, if no dual citizenship, then the airline will not allow you on the plane.

Aussi

they're free to go anywhere that they can get into. It's not Columbia's job to prevent people from leaving.

True, but they have to take back their citizens.

BTW, countries do empty out their jails and point people in other directions.

BTW, countries do empty out their jails and point people in other directions.

Cuba did that in the early 80s for sure. The evidence was everywhere, including testimony of freed prisoners.

Do you have any evidence that multiple countries are doing the same today?

Do you have any evidence that multiple countries are doing the same today?

No, I don't. It's an obvious move, however.

It's an obvious move, however

Though lacking proof.

So stating it as “fact” is highly irresponsible.

but the MAGA's anyway expect cooperation on the USA deporting their criminal citizens back to their country.

He was upset about the use of military planes to bring them in country. So he's nor objecting to them being returned, just military planes.

SNIP Latin American leaders are grappling with how to respond to President Donald Trump's unilateral demands after he enlisted the military to fly deportees home over the weekend.

The U.S. military has a checkered history of intervention in Latin America, and Mexico – which has routinely accepted U.S. charter deportation flights – but appeared to draw a line on the use of a military aircraft.

Colombia and Brazil also condemned the conditions in which deportees were returned, including the use of handcuffs, a practice the agency has used in prior administrations. Colombia suspended deportation flights on Sunday.

Last week, Mexico refused to accept a deportation flight for the first time in decades. The country refused an Airforce C-17 deportation flight on Thursday, a move first reported by NBC News. SNIP

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2025/...

CUBA littered America with it's shit people.

Ask Bill Clinton - -- Carter sent some of the cubans to Arkansas and to this day Clinton feels he lost his election as Governor due to that and it's part of the reason there's always been 'something' between him and Carter.

Though lacking proof.

Yup, sure. Place like Venezuelan don’t have history books to see what Castro did.

Yup, sure. Place like Venezuelan don’t have history books to see what Castro did.

History books? That’s your proof?

History books? That’s your proof?

Oh, I forgot. This is where I’m supposed to fly to Venezuela and dig up the proof. Yeah, not doing that.

The days of a wide open US border where we wink and nod people over are done. The Overton Window has shifted well away from the “No human being is illegal” sensibility.

>>but the MAGA's anyway expect cooperation on the USA deporting their criminal citizens back to their country.<<

He was upset about the use of military planes to bring them in country. So he's nor objecting to them being returned, just military planes. - Lapsody.

---------------------

Fair point. I get why the CP (Colombian President as I forgot his name) why the CP would be upset and say that.

However, these are criminals, gang members, the bad guys first crowd that are on those planes. And it upsets us quite a lot having your citizens in our country preying on our citizens as well as preying on the peaceful law-abiding immigrants housed in the shelters.

Its fine with me if we are both upset. Perhaps the CP can identify a more remote landing site.

It was noble of the CP to offer his private jets to come pick them up. Fine if he can keep up and it saves the USA some money. I just watched a clip of the CP speaking at some sort of presser or event. Another objection he had was the deportees being shackled for the flight. He went on to say he was sending his private jet so the deportees could be returned with the dignity they deserve.

WTF! Dignity they deserve. His words. Dignity for criminals, all of whom have committed serious crimes in the USA. I don't know the political winds in Colombia or degree of corruption or anything like that to grasp why he would be characterizing then as deserving dignity.

But, bottom line, we are both upset and so come and get em and keep up, and if you pamper them on the flight home, that is fine too, we just want them gone. We will fly them in on military to take up any slack.

Apart from that, what is the political landscape in Columbia, I know there generally is a lot of corruption and often the cartels murder reformers and the police/military seem incapable of regaining operational control (for good reason). I don't know how much or if any of these conditions apply to the Colombia or the CP. But it sure is puzzling whose side he is on based on what he said.

Oh, I forgot. This is where I’m supposed to fly to Venezuela and dig up the proof. Yeah, not doing that.

Pointing to something one country did as proof of something another country did….. is not proof.

Neither is “i’m not allowed to go there” any kind of proof.

Have any of the interviews with the immigrants themselves say they were taken out of prison an told to head for the United States? Or that they were forcibly flown to Miami on a Venezuelan charter?

Either of those might be proof.

Pointing to something one country did as proof of something another country did

…is pointing out the obvious.

Have any of the interviews with the immigrants themselves say they were taken out of prison an told to head for the United States? Or that they were forcibly flown to Miami on a Venezuelan charter?


Don’t know. Don’t care.

Every flight that leaves has on board some dozens of criminals, many violent, who can’t victimize somebody up here. That’s something to be celebrated.

I’ll also note for the record that we’re getting this done absent sweeping legislation from Congress. This board claimed that was a requirement before anything like this could take place.

And as always, the left wing on this board was wrong.

Btw, Dope- I support sending criminals back to their countries of origen o problem there. There have been millions of Latin American immigrants and it would be ludicrous to think a certain percentage of them would be criminals. America has always been a land of opportunity- for criminals also.

But there’s no proof that any country emptied it’s prisons of criminals and dumped them (how does that work?) in America.

>>Have any of the interviews with the immigrants themselves say they were taken out of prison an told to head for the United States? Or that they were forcibly flown to Miami on a Venezuelan charter?<<


Don’t know. Don’t care. - Dope

-----------------------------

Me either. I don't get why anybody would care when we already know these are among the bad guys first that ICE is arresting. Getting these violent criminals out of our country is the only priority.

And I am saddened to hear that some of them were forcibly flown to Miami on a Venezuelan charter. These asylums seekers should have just used the App provided by Biden to request a flight in and the US will send them a voucher to fly commercial.

Me either. I don't get why anybody would care when we already know these are among the bad guys first that ICE is arresting. Getting these violent criminals out of our country is the only priority.

All true! So why did Trump lie about how they got here? Why was it so important for him to repeat over and over and over again that countries were emptying their prisons and sending the criminals here? Was he creating a pretext for doing what he’s threatening to do with Panama and Mexico?

And why did he fan the illusion that most immigrants are criminals? Especially when immigrant populations have a lower crime rate than the native born population?

Fair point. I get why the CP (Colombian President as I forgot his name) why the CP would be upset and say that.

That's it. Four out of the five transnational gangs listed in Wikipedia were founded in the USA. I know there are more, Russian, etc., not listed, but we also have more transnational gangs not listed.

MS-13 The Mara Salvatrucha, or the MS-13 gang are located in the United States, Canada, Mexico and El Salvador.[2] The Mara Salvatrucha gang was founded in the 1980s in Los Angeles, California.[3]

18th Street Gang The 18th Street Gang, also known as the Barrio 18, are located in the United States, Canada, Central America and Mexico. The 18th Street Gang is a youth gang. The current gang was founded in the 1980s in Los Angeles, California

Barrio Azteca The Barrio Azteca are a prison gang that are located in the United States and Mexico. The Barrio Azteca was founded in 1986 in El Paso, Texas.

The Hells Angels are an outlaw motorcycle gang. They are located in the United States, Europe, Canada, Oceania, Africa, Asia, South America and Central America.[8] The gang was founded on March 7, 1948 in Fontana, California and San Bernardino, California.[9]

Black Pistons The Black Pistons are an outlaw motorcycle gang. They are located in the United States, Wales, Scotland, Iceland, Australia, England, Norway, Ireland, Belgium, Switzerland, Poland, Germany and Canada. The gang was founded in Germany in 2002 as a support for the Outlaws Motorcycle Club.[11]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnational_gangs

So why did Trump lie about how they got here

How do you know he did?

And why did he fan the illusion that most immigrants are criminals?

100% of illegal immigrants *are* criminals.
No matter what they do after they get here, they get their start by breaking US law.

100% of illegal immigrants *are* criminals.

Crimes for Which Migrants are Prosecuted

Physical presence in the United States without proper authorization is a civil violation, rather than a criminal offense. This means that the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) can place a person in removal (deportation) proceedings and can require payment of a fine, but the federal government cannot charge the person with a criminal offense unless they have previously been ordered deported and reentered in violation of that deportation order. Likewise, a person who enters the United States on a valid visa and stays longer than permitted may be put in removal proceedings but cannot face federal criminal charges based solely on this civil infraction. Those who enter or reenter the United States without permission, however, can face criminal charges.

https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/researc...
----------------------
Illegal entry into the United States occurs when an individual enters without proper authorization, which includes crossing the U.S. border at non-designated points or using fraudulent documentation to gain entry. This act carries serious legal ramifications and is considered a federal misdemeanor for the first offense.

https://www.novo-legal.com/en/blog/visa-overstays-...

So why did Trump lie about how they got here

<i<How do you know he did?

Because making a statement without evidence is a lie.

Sorta like “Biden stole the 2020 election”.

Lying is also his MO.

It also preps American opinion to support military action against Panama and Mexico. After all, they emptied their prisons and dumped their criminals in America. He never specifically limited his charge to Venezuela.

That last statement is merelymy opinion.

Why was it so important for him to repeat over and over and over again that countries were emptying their prisons and sending the criminals here? - Bill

----------------

Trump has been saying that for a long long time. It is a talking point to call attention to the border problem. Every time I heard him say it I knew it was not literally true, but it didn't bother me. It is another example of his clumsy (or devious) way to draw attention to the huge problems open borders has brought upon us. We have learned a crapload of unvetted hardened criminals got in and surely a few crazies too among the stream. But all the sources countries, all of the criminals and crazies, no way. So Trump is lying if you are a literalist, or it his bombastic style that only MAGAs understand.

Because making a statement without evidence is a lie.

You don't know that. You're stating your opinion as fact.

It also preps American opinion to support military action against Panama and Mexico.

Nah. The declaration of the cartels as terrorist orgs does that.

Appending to my prior post. I ended with a question about the political landscape in Colombia. I noodled around the interwebs and found the article linked below which I think is well written and explains their situation it pretty well.

Bottom line, not good, Colombia is a prickly tangle of perpetuating crime and corruption issues that appear to me anyway will take a substantial and long term outside power to establish order and rebuild a functional government if that is even possible. It certainly won't be us, we learned our lesson in Afghanistan about nation building.

https://www.statista.com/topics/11095/crime-and-vi...

Crime and violence in Colombia – statistics & facts

Colombia is one of the most affected countries by criminality and violence in Latin America and the world. The situation continues to expand and so do the responses from the government. In just the last ten years, public expenditure on order and security has increased 140 percent, reaching over 30 billion Colombian pesos. Meanwhile, the cost of violence for the country in 2023 was around 274 billion dollars, almost the double when compared to 2015. Overall, gang activity, illegal drug trafficking, and corruption in the national territory tell a complicated story of violence that continues to torment all Colombian residents, provoking mass migration to other countries and a perpetuating state of insecurity.

... lots more at the link

It certainly won't be us, we learned our lesson in Afghanistan about nation building.

Let’s hope.

The clown doesn't know if it's Columbia, or Colombia?

Facepalm...

Well, at least all the Jan 6th terrorists and cop beaters are free.

Colombia is one of the most affected countries by criminality and violence in Latin America and the world.

I've been there a few times. Had an acquaintance who retired near Medellin and went a little crazy. Medellin was the murder capital of the world during that time. Not just gang wars, the FARC on the plains was mostly kids. Kids will do things adults are reluctant to do. There were dumb Americans who would take a bus down to the plains near FARC territory and a couple of them ended up in prisoner exchanges or missing. I only ventured out to the salt mine cathedral on a train because it was deemed safe and the route was safe.

The usual custom in Latin America is someone heads north and sends money back. They help the standard of living for the family at home that way. This is an honorable custom and if someone is doing that, they're OK in my book. Families are tighter there, more bonded, because they help each other out, depend on each other.

The first tine I noticed the resentment of illegals was during the GFC under Obama. Fox news would run a continuous loop of illegals crossing a ridge and get everyone stirred up about illegals, but the stats showed illegals were leaving the USA and going home as the jobs dried up. It seems that if they weren't working, they preferred to be home in their country with their family. Such bad guys, such terrible people sending money home to help mom and dad raise their siblings, help Grandma's medicine, etc. Sure, some gang members make it north, but we're fat city full of addicts. And no one cares if an addict dies.

What we need to do is have Walter White teach the gangs how to make proper doses of fentanyl (fantasy), so the only ODs are the suicides or the not so bright. Never put it past Trump to invade Colombia - you can't control those mountains. And while Latin Americans like individual Americans, probably around 20% are familiar with Latin American history, and for the rest anti-American propaganda is there, just like people believe propaganda here, they believe the propaganda there.

To sum up...

Colombia: We're not accepting shackled detainees returned on military flights. Transport them with dignity.

Trump: Trade war!

Colombia: OK.

Trump: Oh never mind, we will comply, no more shackled detainees returned on military flights.

Colombia: Good. Was that so hard?

Trump: "Columbia" (sic) backs down, I won, America is respected again. I did it, only I could do it!

And a few Democrat gang members are GONE.

And you and the Left can't stand it.

Neither can I - I wish I had the money and guts to send them to affluent liberal enclaves.

It wasn't widely reported, but the same issue came up with Mexico a few days earlier.
The basic message to Trump was...
Stop using our citizens as props in your propaganda films.

It's clear the propaganda worked as intended on our local MAGA true believers.
Alan

It's clear the propaganda worked as intended on our local MAGA true believers.

This is what's needed to happen. Sorry that runs against liberal sensitivities.

The key point is these deportation flights have been ongoing for MANY years. The only thing that changed is Trump turned them into a theatrical propaganda event.
Alan

Dopey: Don’t know. Don’t care. ---- BHM: Me either.

I think there's a trend here..... tradable in it's consistency if it were worth anything

The key point is these deportation flights have been ongoing for MANY years. The only thing that changed is Trump turned them into a theatrical propaganda event.

The real key point(s) are these flights are points of emphasis now and that Columbia tried to push it. FA, FO as they say.

Colombia is a prickly tangle of perpetuating crime and corruption issues that appear to me anyway will take a substantial and long term outside power to establish order and rebuild a functional government if that is even possible.


Trump and his circle of advisors are a prickly tangle of criminals perpetuating crime and corruption issues that appear will take a substantial and long term effort to establish order and rebuild a functional government if that is even possible.

This is what's needed to happen. Sorry that runs against liberal sensitivities.

You do know that there have been 476 deportation flights to Columbia during the Biden administration, 124 in 2024 alone.

What is it that needs to happen?

The only thing different about the Air Trump flight was that it was a military transport. The people were handcuffed, forced to sit on the deck of the plane and were not given food, water, or allowed to use the restroom.

This is the source of the demand by the president of Columbia that his people be treated with bacic human decency.

Trump won nothing but the contempt of the free world and the cheers of MAGA, who apparently are aroused on displays of cruelty.

Biden averaged about 3 deportation flights to Colombia per week. So far, Trump has failed at his first two flights. If he had just maintained the Biden average he would have already had about 10 flights of migrants back in Colombia.
Great Job Trump!
Alan

You do know that there have been 476 deportation flights to Columbia during the Biden administration, 124 in 2024 alone.


They don't know because they don't venture outside the RW media bubble where the truth goes to die.

You do know that there have been 476 deportation flights to Columbia during the Biden administration, 124 in 2024 alone.

Great! There can be more this year.

The only thing different about the Air Trump flight was that it was a military transport. The people were handcuffed, forced to sit on the deck of the plane and were not given food, water, or allowed to use the restroom.

Were you on the plane with them?

Trump won nothing but the contempt of the free world and the cheers of MAGA, who apparently are aroused on displays of cruelty.

This statement is what posting irrelevance looks like.

I dedicate this one to you:

https://x.com/DerrickEvans4WV/status/1883576333709...

Trump won nothing but the contempt of the free world and the cheers of MAGA, who apparently are aroused on displays of cruelty.

That's not all he's won.

Trump is absolutely correct that the U.S. is a lot more powerful than a nation like Colombia. And that therefore we can force Colombia to do some things they don't want to do, in the immediate near term, by pulling harshly on some of the levers of power we have.

The reason why we historically haven't done that, of course, is because there are longer term costs to being harsh to smaller regional allies.

In this case, China was already working hard to increase its strategic and economic ties with Colombia. China has been pursuing its "Belt and Road Initiative" all over the globe, using investments and trade and other projections of "soft" power to foster favorable relationships with national governments. It's their main strategy right now to augment their global power. Colombia has been increasing their trade with China and fostering a closer relationship, but they had not yet joined the BRI:

https://thediplomat.com/2024/08/evaluating-colombi...

Trump was able to embarrass and dominate Colombia and their leadership...which got him a favorable result on the flights and a nice news cycle of coverage, but you can expect that China and Colombia will accelerate this trend. Colombia now knows that it cannot take for granted any goodwill from the United States. The best way to protect themselves is to decrease the relative importance of bilateral trade with us, and increase their economic and strategic interconnectedness with other countries.

In short, Trump has handed China a golden opportunity to accelerate Colombia's shift into their sphere of influence.

Were you on the plane with them?


No. But a computer analyst was on the flight and forced to endure those conditions and he wrote about it.

Who you gonna believe, the criminal or the victim?

I dedicate this one to you:

Strange you would dedicate a shot of border wall construction taking place under Biden to him. That guy already posted a picture of that construction taking place....a month ago. But on Facebook, not X, so I guess it's understandable why people wouldn't realize that....

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=8944832728...

Either way. The wall will go up, and that was the point.

In short, Trump has handed China a golden opportunity to accelerate Colombia's shift into their sphere of influence.

Turns out- he can’t even play checkers, let alone chess.

But his followers keep waiting for him to unveil his secret weapon that will dazzle everyone with its brilliance.

Cruelty is all he’s got.

“Please sir, can I have some more.”

The key point is these deportation flights have been ongoing for MANY years. The only thing that changed is Trump turned them into a theatrical propaganda event.
Alan

--------------

There is higher volume now and growing every day thankfully. These criminal are going back one or the other. Our feelings get hurt too when one of your citizens preys on ours.

Either way. The wall will go up, and that was the point.

What point? All you did was post a link to the picture. The picture, though, is of wall construction that's already happened. So it doesn't actually show that the wall will go up - it's just construction of border barriers that already took place during the prior Administration.

When you posted it, did you realize that it was border construction that had occurred when Biden was in office?

cheers of MAGA, who apparently are aroused on displays of cruelty.

In MAGA world, cruelty is the point.

There can be no kindness, no mercy, no caring, no compassion. Only cruelty.

That’s why we have dozens of MAGA Congressman complaining about a sermon calling for mercy.

That’s why we have foreigners being deported in conditions not that dissimilar to the way slaves were imported - shackled and chained to the vessel transporting them, in physical discomfort, and denied the most basic of human dignities - the ability to keep from soiling one’s self.

That’s why we can never stop fighting against this inhumane ideology.

—Peter

In short, Trump has handed China a golden opportunity to accelerate Colombia's shift into their sphere of influence. - albaby

-------------------

That certainly is a risk, a genuine risk that needs to be mitigated. I am not disputing that at all.

On the other hand, the criminals that are preying on our country, the fentanyl, the human trafficking, the enrichment of the cartels are themselves massive problems. In short, as far as I am concerned it is a judgement call, and that is what we elect presidents to decide.

And we are all free to criticize him for it, if that is what you believe. Personally I think the open border is a more immediate problem and more fixable. Plus we are capable of addressing multiple problems simultaneously, so it is not an either/or.

Lets not forget all the videos of streams of young, fit, single, Chinese men that poured into our country through our porous border. What are they up to?

The only thing different about the Air Trump flight was that it was a military transport. The people were handcuffed, forced to sit on the deck of the plane and were not given food, water, or allowed to use the restroom.

And from what I heard, the military flights cost $800,000 each, whereas the ICE flights cost $8,000. What a bargain!

In short, Trump has handed China a golden opportunity to accelerate Colombia's shift into their sphere of influence.

If they join Belt and Road, it won't be because of Trump. Are you aware who Columbia's President is?

A wave of Socialism has been sweeping South America for the last 20 years.

On the other hand, the criminals that are preying on our country, the fentanyl, the human trafficking, the enrichment of the cartels are themselves massive problems. In short, as far as I am concerned it is a judgement call, and that is what we elect presidents to decide.

Ever since Barack Obama there's been a strain of what I call Acceptance of mediocrity in this country. It's when things aren't as good as they used to be and folks just shrug their shoulders and say, "I guess that's just the way it is now" and don't do anything.

You see it all over the place. In Seattle, where I live, local liberals have their cars broken into left and right and expect nothing to be done. On this board, recall that controlling the border was Just Impossible I Tell You.

Perhaps US Presidents in the past were fearful of straight talk because of the implicit threat that some Country X would hop into bed with China. If so, that's an inherent admission of weakness right off the bat (and to explain that point, if somebody who says they're your friend is implicitly threatening to bail on you if you so much as an arch an eyebrow, they're not really your friend).

Columbia has been under pressure for years from FARC and the cartels; it's not surprising they'd show some cracks after a while.

The wall will go up, and that was the point.

Fine. Build the stupid wall. Build it across every inch of our border with Mexico. That’s a fight no longer worth fighting. In fact, build it now and as fast as you can.

It’s a waste of time and money. But the MAGA fools won’t understand that until its built and fails to do the job it was promised to do. It will have a marginal effect at best. It will be a maintenance nightmare and cost way more than expected.

Some people are simply incapable of learning from the past. They cannot learn from the experience of others. They must experience it for themselves to actually learn.

But at least it will provide jobs. And it won’t actually hurt people.

So have your little play toy to distract you while the adults come up with real solutions to the problem.

—Peter

Fine. Build the stupid wall.

Why, thank you! We will. It's what everyone wants. Well, except for some disgruntled people.

So have your little play toy to distract you while the adults come up with real solutions to the problem.

As I said, disgruntled. We don't need the democrat party to secure the border. They've never been interested in it anyway, so why bother?

Let them pout.

That certainly is a risk, a genuine risk that needs to be mitigated. I am not disputing that at all.

On the other hand, the criminals that are preying on our country, the fentanyl, the human trafficking, the enrichment of the cartels are themselves massive problems. In short, as far as I am concerned it is a judgement call, and that is what we elect presidents to decide.

As noted above, deporting people to Columbia is nothing new. There's no reason why these deportations couldn't have been done without the drama of treating the deportees this way.

Trump appears to believe that the U.S. is the only superpower, and that we haven't been acting like it enough. He doesn't appear to believe that any of the actual trade-offs and constraints that prior Presidents have recognized (both GOP and Democrat) are as significant as his predecessors believed, so he appears intent on ignoring them. I think that's both short-sighted and foolish.

Lets not forget all the videos of streams of young, fit, single, Chinese men that poured into our country through our porous border. What are they up to?

Almost certainly the same thing that most immigrants that are videotaped crossing the border are doing - applying for asylum and trying to work while they wait for a decision.

If they join Belt and Road, it won't be because of Trump. Are you aware who Columbia's President is?

Yes. But Trump's actions can't be both consequential and irrelevant - strongly shaping Colombia's behavior for all the intended consequences, but having no impact at all on the unintended ones.

When Trump forces the country to publicly bend the knee like this, it accomplishes his short-term objective - but it makes the country and the electorate far more receptive to the possibility of opening up more and more to the Chinese. Politics exist, and the many reasons why Colombia had been moving more modestly in the direction of Belt-and-Road rather than just signing on were a function of that politics. It's a golden opportunity for China to appear more as a viable strategic partner that serves Colombia's interest rather than being a carpetbagger.

So when Trump throws a hand grenade into Colombia's domestic politics and foreign policy like this, it's going to have an effect. Trade-offs exist.

I agree that Trump will disclaim any responsibility, of course - and I expect his supporters will as well. But that doesn't make this a smart thing to do.

When Trump forces the country to publicly bend the knee like this, it accomplishes his short-term objective - but it makes the country and the electorate far more receptive to the possibility of opening up more and more to the Chinese.

Again, you're assuming the Chinese thing is a new flirtation. It's not. We've been asleep at the wheel for a long time now.

If you want somebody to talk to the Columbians about what a bad idea B&R and/or getting into bed with China is, fly Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni down there to talk to them about it.

Then offer the Columbians some economic assistance.

OK...guys...even the lawyer is getting it wrong...

It's COLOMBIA. Not "Columbia". We're not talking "District of Columbia". It's the nation of Colombia.

The thread heading is wrong, even if the OP copied/pasted an excerpt that was correct. I thought people would fix it in their posts, but they aren't.

one-pedant-poorguy

In this case, China was already working hard to increase its strategic and economic ties with Colombia.

[noting that the lawyer fixed his spelling ;-) ]

What ever happened to the Monroe Doctrine? Would that even be legal today? If so, we could use that. Even if it wasn't specifically pointed at China when Monroe did it.

Again, you're assuming the Chinese thing is a new flirtation.

No, I'm not. I'm pointing out that just like U.S. actions can affect what Colombia does vis-a-vis our deportation flights, they can also affect what Colombia does vis-a-vis their economic and strategic policy.

A Colombia that regards the U.S. as a friend and ally will "flirt" with the Chinese differently than a Colombia that has just been threatened and demeaned by the U.S.

There are consequences to the actions we take. It's foolhardy to just shut our eyes to that and pretend that everything would have happened anyway, so we don't ever have to worry about any consequences to our policy choices other than the ones we want and intend. The real world doesn't work that way.

We just triggered a major diplomatic confrontation with the fourth largest country in the Western Hemisphere, and one of the largest economies in Latin America.....just so we could send back their deportees in military planes rather than (cheaper!) civilian aircraft. I'm sure it made Trump and his supporters feel good, but it's just trading a small short-term benefit for a much larger longer-term negative. We just smoothed the path for China - not just in Colombia, but all the other countries in the region. Oh, yes - they've been put "on notice," but not on notice for just the things Trump wants them to. They've been put "on notice" that they better work a lot harder and faster to make the Western Hemisphere more multipolar, since they will no longer be able to rely on the U.S. to be a supportive partner going forward.

I'm pointing out that just like U.S. actions can affect what Colombia does vis-a-vis our deportation flights, they can also affect what Colombia does vis-a-vis their economic and strategic policy.

And again, if they get pissy over a Truth Social post, then what does that say about our relationship with them?

In this thread you have libs touting loads of flights to Colombia that were taking place. Somehow I doubt we were paying for Delta One to send deportees back home, so one wonders what the Colombian President was trying to achieve with his snit.

Either way, FAFO is now in effect.

There are consequences to the actions we take. It's foolhardy to just shut our eyes to that and pretend that everything would have happened anyway, so we don't ever have to worry about any consequences to our policy choices other than the ones we want and intend. The real world doesn't work that way.

I get your point; you don't need to belabor it. Would I rather Trump not spike the football so loudly on social media? Yes I would; I don't care for this level of ham-fistedness over stuff like this - I'd rather he deliver the message in private and at 110 decibels if that's what it took.

But we're not farting around anymore with US national security, and it's been too long since we took it seriously.

Dopey: these flights are points of emphasis now

Points of emphasis are no substitute for comprehensive legislation.

Points of emphasis are a sign of a seagull manager*


*-A seagull manager is a toxic leader who flies in, makes a lot of noise, dumps on everyone, and then flies out.

The real world doesn't work that way.

But the MAGA world does.

That's what happens when you make decisions based on flawed information or flawed ideology...

For a good outcome, one needs to conform to reality instead of ideology.

For a good outcome, one needs to conform to reality

Allowing millions of unvetted people to swarm the border isn't a sustainable thing.

Never was. Neither is 99.9999% of proggie ideology.

And again, if they get pissy over a Truth Social post, then what does that say about our relationship with them?

Trump uses Truth Social as an official conduit for directly expressing foreign policy. You can damn well expect that they will react to a threat of a 25% punitive tariff - rising to 50% - across all of their goods with their largest trading partner. The most likely reaction is that they will start immediately prioritizing efforts to minimize having that vulnerability going forward. The most obvious way to do that is to accelerate moving towards China.

Would I rather Trump not spike the football so loudly on social media? Yes I would; I don't care for this level of ham-fistedness over stuff like this - I'd rather he deliver the message in private and at 110 decibels if that's what it took.

It didn't help, of course - but even the threatening at 110 decibels in private has consequences. Again, as Mike Johnson said, this puts Colombia "on notice" - on notice that Trump will think little of inflicting really bad economic harm with very little advance notice on a very minor issue (military vs. civilian flights). When you've mostly had good relations with your much bigger and stronger neighbor, but he turns very hostile over a minor matter and threatens you, you will take notice and change your behavior towards them. In the immediate term, you'll do what they ordered you to do - but over the longer term, you'll really start investing in ways to protect yourself from them as best you can. Unfortunately for us and our longer term foreign policy, those "best" ways are going to involve moving faster towards China and other powers.

The most likely reaction is that they will start immediately prioritizing efforts to minimize having that vulnerability going forward. The most obvious way to do that is to accelerate moving towards China.

Perhaps. We'll see.

It didn't help, of course - but even the threatening at 110 decibels in private has consequences.

And this is the Acceptance of Mediocrity chorus I mentioned earlier.
The Colombian criminals are theirs, and they're taking them back, no ifs, ands or buts.

Allowing millions of unvetted people to swarm the border isn't a sustainable thing.

But using civilian aircraft in lieu of military aircraft probably was. We didn't need to threaten to blow up Colombia's economy (bilateral trade between us is more than 10% of their GDP) over this specific thing. This specific thing wasn't millions of people swarming over the border - it was two flights by military aircraft. It could have been handled a dozen different ways - Trump chose an intensely threatening way. That made Colombia knuckle under immediately, but there's no way that the current Colombian government doesn't mentally move the U.S. out of the "dependable ally" box into the "unstable threat" box when making their economic and foreign policy choices going forward.

Again, China's got to be thrilled about that. Colombia's one of the largest countries in the hemisphere, both in terms of population and economy. The biggest in South America with a Pacific Coast. It's got to be towards the top of their list in global priorities. We just burned years of bilateral relations and cooperation so that we could force them to accept military flights rather than civilian flights, or not have to wait a day or two to work that out cooperatively rather than confrontationally.

That's certainly an "America First" approach - use our massive size to threaten and intimidate rather than work cooperatively with people. But it doesn't seem like an especially smart one, because even though Colombia is smaller than us and doesn't have a lot of immediate options to retaliate, they've still got lots of choices about how to structure their economy and foreign policy that are now going to be made very differently.

And this is the Acceptance of Mediocrity chorus I mentioned earlier.
The Colombian criminals are theirs, and they're taking them back, no ifs, ands or buts.

They've never refused them in the past. As was pointed out upthread, they received many hundreds of flights of deportees continuously over the last several years.

This didn't achieve getting Colombia to take back criminals - all it did was force Colombia to accept military aircraft instead of civilian aircraft. It was literally idiotic to use the threat of an economy-disrupting trade war over such a minor thing. It worked, of course - Colombia accepted the military aircraft instead of the civilian aircraft. But now Colombia - and every other nation in the hemisphere - is "on notice" that the U.S. is willing to inflict maximal damage on their economies over even the most minor of disagreements.

We'll be reaping the consequences of this little stunt for many, many years - but at least we can use military instead of civilian aircraft now, and Trump's supporters can feel satisfied about how our disproportionate threat cowed a putative ally into being afraid of us.

Are you aware who Columbia's President is?

Interim President Katrina Armstrong

Katrina Armstrong became the interim president of Columbia University on August 14, 2024. She is also the chief executive officer of Columbia University Irving Medical Center, which includes the Vagelos College of Physicians and Surgeons, the School of Nursing, the College of Dental Medicine, and the Mailman School of Public Health. She also is executive vice president for Health and Biomedical Sciences for Columbia University. Dr. Armstrong is an internationally recognized investigator in medical decision making, quality of care, and cancer prevention and outcomes, an award-winning teacher, and a practicing primary care physician.

It's what everyone wants.

No. It is absolutely NOT what everyone wants. There are an awful lot of people that don't want it because it is a waste of money and won't accomplish the job. But it's no longer a battle worth fighting.

They've [Democrats] never been interested in it anyway, so why bother?

More BS. Democrats in Congress worked with Republicans to negotiate a bill that would help improve border security. But it wasn't exactly, absolutely, everything that Trump wanted, so he killed it.

You are free to think whatever you want. But when you lie, you deserve to have those lies called out.

You'd make a lot more progress getting your ideas advanced if you didn't resort to lies to accomplish what you want. Lies just make you look bad.

--Peter

That's certainly an "America First" approach - use our massive size to threaten and intimidate rather than work cooperatively with people. But it doesn't seem like an especially smart one, because even though Colombia is smaller than us and doesn't have a lot of immediate options to retaliate, they've still got lots of choices about how to structure their economy and foreign policy that are now going to be made very differently.

Again, if all it takes to throw Colombia into China's camp is one incident, then they were already 99% of the way there.

They've never refused them in the past.

So why refuse them now? Because somebody decided to see if they could push Cheeto Hitler. They found out that they couldn't.
Now what happens when somebody else wants to?

We'll be reaping the consequences of this little stunt for many, many years

I know. The sky is falling, falling down. All our allies are going to abandon us now.

OK...guys...even the lawyer is getting it wrong...

It's COLOMBIA.

Dammit! I'm late again. And triggered by exactly the same typo by the lawyer.


But getting back to the point of the thread, spelling your country's name wrong is just one more point in insulting foreigners by our actions. Yet another Trumpian kind of move. What you want is irrelevant - what I/we want is all that matters. Terrible way to conduct foreign relations. (Or run a country, for that matter.)

--Peter

Again, China's got to be thrilled about that.

With Trump's penchant to cozy up to Xi, one has to wonder whether this unforced error was a bug or a feature.

Hmmm.

--Peter

And again, if they get pissy over a Truth Social post, then what does that say about our relationship with them?

It says that US relations with Latin America have been fraught- ever since the southern slaver Walker brought a band of mercenaries to Nicaragua, overthrew the Nicaraguan government and tried to establish Nicaragua as a slave state.

Things went downhill from there…. With country after country captured by American corporate interests.

We’ve been playing catch-up ever sense, trying to re-establis solid ties with Latin America.

Trump’s bro nonsense jeopardizes all of that and reenforces the Latin American notion that the US demands humiliation as the price of relationship.


Not a winning strategy. In fact it’s a losing strategy.

The only success Trump has had with humiliation as a strategy is with the Republican Party here in the States.

Again, if all it takes to throw Colombia into China's camp is one incident, then they were already 99% of the way there.

Not really. "China's lap" isn't a binary condition. A single egregious incident can poison diplomatic relations massively, and cause significant changes in policy. So we should not be shocked to see Colombia move further, faster, and more aggressively than they might have absent Trump's aggressive threat. Even if they were already cordial with China, this will make them really focus on improving that relationship. And all the other countries of the region as well.

BTW - one minor irony? Colombia is one of the few countries on earth that we had a positive balance of trade with. One of the few nations in the world that had opened up their economy to us more than we brought in from them.

So why refuse them now?

Because everyone has a breaking point. This was Colombia's breaking point.

To repeat: There was absolutely no need to use military aircraft for this job. It's been done dozens (hundreds? thousands?) of times over the last decade or two by civilian aircraft. There was no reason whatsoever to do this via military aircraft except to provoke a response.


Side bit of info. Are you aware that when the President travels internationally, the Air Force personnel who fly the plane and conduct in flight activities and who support the plane upon arrival and during the time it waits for the President's departure all wear civilian clothes? This in spite of the fact that they are conducting these operations as part of the official military duties.

They do this to emphasize the fact that this is not a military invasion of the country, but a peaceful and non-aggressive presence in their country. They do this to help put the foreign country - both leadership and citizens - at ease about this activity. They do this out of respect for the foreign country's sovereignty over their airspace and lands.

But Trump and MAGA have no respect for anyone. So they do whatever stupid shit they want and expect deference - just like the schoolyard bully. Guess what? Being a bully doesn't always work. Stand up to bullies, and they back down.

--Peter

I know. The sky is falling, falling down. All our allies are going to abandon us now</i

No. It would probably take an expeditionary force sent to Greenland, triggering the NATO self defense clause.

So why refuse them now? Because somebody decided to see if they could push Cheeto Hitler.

No, because we decided to start using military aircraft instead of civilian aircraft. You know, the same way we would react if another country that has civilian airlines flying in and out decided to have their military penetrate our airspace? We would have opinions about that.

I know. The sky is falling, falling down. All our allies are going to abandon us now.

No, you know that's an exaggeration. But it is a serious misstep. China's playing a long-term, subtle, and global game to build up their economic strength, access to foreign economies, and establish a dominant role in international institutions and markets. The hallmark of the early Trump administration has been threatening our putative allies - treating them as contentious rivals instead - but this goes beyond that. "Do what we say or we'll blow up your economy" might not lead Colombia to lease China a military base - but it's certainly going to open them up to exploring ways to increase bilateral trade with China rather than the U.S.

One of the few nations in the world that had opened up their economy to us more than we brought in from them.

This.more.than.anything demonsrates Trump’s utter lack of coherent foreign policy.

It more resembles “what made me angry while watching FOXNews this morning?

Trump’s bro nonsense jeopardizes all of that and reenforces the Latin American notion that the US demands humiliation as the price of relationship.

Jeopardizes all of what? You just said relations with Latin America have been horrid.

I think you folks are forgetting that it was Colombia that broke with precedent first and refused the evac flight.

It didn't help, of course - but even the threatening at 110 decibels in private has consequences. Again, as Mike Johnson said, this puts Colombia "on notice" - on notice that Trump will think little of inflicting really bad economic harm with very little advance notice on a very minor issue (military vs. civilian flights). When you've mostly had good relations with your much bigger and stronger neighbor - albaby

----------------

Other than cash our $400M+ aid checks every year, what exactly has our investment in "good relations" obtained for the USA?

BTW, has the CP's plane shown up yet. We had two military transports planes loaded with criminals ready to go, have they been picked up yet. I doubt it. Jere is something i found concerning the CP's plane.

The presidential aircraft of Colombia is a Boeing 737-700 BBJ (Boeing Business Jet) registered FAC-0001 and operated by the Colombian Air Force. It features a VIP cabin and has a capacity for 54 passengers. The aircraft entered service in July 2006.

With a seating capacity of 54 it is clear the CP cannot catch up, let alone keep up. then what, fly civilian. Yep take that long awaited family vacation to Columbia and have half the plane full of guys with neck tattoos as seat mates. We could charter some commercial planes if the major carriers have the spare capacity to lease to us. I am OK with that and even encourage it but the deportees must keep flowing South until another alternative can be arranged and that alternative ain't the CP's plane.

So we should not be shocked to see Colombia move further, faster, and more aggressively than they might have absent Trump's aggressive threat.

Omg. There’s the sky falling, falling I tell you.

BTW - one minor irony? Colombia is one of the few countries on earth that we had a positive balance of trade with.

Depends. You counting cocaine imports in with that? If you are then that’s red, too.

BTW trade imbalance is an imperfect metric for assessing economies, not unlike Time of Possession in football. The whole story isn’t told.

Because everyone has a breaking point. This was Colombia's breaking point.

Lulz. No it wasn’t. They said no to an inbound flight. According to your fellow travelers they’ve been a regular recipient of them in the last.

So something doesn’t jive with all the histrionics going on in this thread.

Either it’s not true that they’ve been getting loads of repatriation flights -or- it is try and somebody did in fact want to push Trump to see what he’d do.

No. It would probably take an expeditionary force sent to Greenland, triggering the NATO self defense clause.

Don’t need one. We already have a base there.

Other than cash our $400M+ aid checks every year, what exactly has our investment in "good relations" obtained for the USA?

A relatively peaceful and stable ally that maintains a vibrant bilateral economic exchange of goods and services, together with cooperation on all manner of regional issues relating to the security of the hemisphere. In contrast to nations on the other extreme like Cuba (for example), that cooperate far more heavily with our global rivals and create security threats in the broader area.

Colombia's not going to become Cuba any time soon, but pushing it to be more in China's sphere of influence is exactly the opposite of what we want to do. But on the other hand, we did get to use military aircraft instead of civilian aircraft this time....so there's that.

Either it’s not true that they’ve been getting loads of repatriation flights -or- it is try and somebody did in fact want to push Trump to see what he’d do.

Or - as has been repeatedly pointed out - the U.S. decided unilaterally to change from civilian to military aircraft, and Colombia expressed a perfectly normal and understandable reluctance to have U.S. military aircraft penetrating their airspace instead of civilian aircraft.

Either way. The wall will go up, and that was the point.

And it will be an monument to stupidity and waste. In a few places it makes sense, otherwise the money could be much better spent on other measures for border control.

But low info MAGA just love the sound of a big wall on the border, never mind that it accomplishes little and cost a fortune.

I think you folks are forgetting that it was Colombia that broke with precedent first and refused the evac flight.

Do you not comprehend what has been said? Do you have no concept of time - what order things happen in?

The precedent was broken when military flights took off toward Colombia. That Colombia refused the flights is the consequence of breaking with precedent, not the cause.

--Peter

We'll be reaping the consequences of this little stunt for many, many years - but at least we can use military instead of civilian aircraft now, and Trump's supporters can feel satisfied about how our disproportionate threat cowed a putative ally into being afraid of us. - albaby

-------------

Lets also acknowledge there is value to demonstrating our resolve to countries other than Colombia. We expect an ROI for the USA and one of the ways for your country to show it is eagerly facilitating the return of your citizen to you when they break the law in the USA. If not that, what else are you offering, cheap coffee?

>>Are you aware who Columbia's President is?<<

Interim President Katrina Armstrong - Lambo

-----------

LOL. Good one.

But at least it will provide jobs. And it won’t actually hurt people.

And it provides plenty of opportunity for corrupt MAGA contractors to rip off Uncle Sam. Perfect.

Or - as has been repeatedly pointed out - the U.S. decided unilaterally to change from civilian to military aircraft, and Colombia expressed a perfectly normal and understandable reluctance to have U.S. military aircraft penetrating their airspace instead of civilian aircraft.

Uh, huh.
You ought to know that C-17 flights are a regular occurrence around the globe between the US and allies.

Plus, as has been pointed out - we weren't sending people down there on Delta One before.

Nah. I think the explanation of "Let's push Trump to see if he's serious" makes the most sense. Some of you ought to study The Strong Horse Theory a little more as well.

I'm not even going to bother to quote you if you're going to be an ass.

And you people aren't doing anything other than having another emotional meltdown. Military flights happen all the time. You don't turn something like this around midair unless you're trying to push Trump.

Well, they did.

And for those of you who think this one thing is going to push them into China's arms, lolololololol. Tell me you don't know how the Chinese treat other countries without telling me you don't know how the Chinese treat other countries.

Mean tweets are the least of your worries when you get into bed with the ChiComs. Ask the Italians how it worked out for them.

Lets also acknowledge there is value to demonstrating our resolve to countries other than Colombia. We expect an ROI for the USA and one of the ways for your country to show it is eagerly facilitating the return of your citizen to you when they break the law in the USA. If not that, what else are you offering, cheap coffee?

Hey, loads of coke, man, and not the Have a Coke and a Smile kind, either.

Fascinating thread. Whole bunch of libs who have soiled their Depends today. The best part is they can't stop pounding glasses of prune juice so the flow just keeps comin'.

Don’t need one. We already have a base there.

A testament to better times....

A Space Force base is not an expeditionary force.

Greenland looks kindly on the former as an element of shared defense.

The reaction would be quite different if Marine Expeditionary Forces hit the shoreline in landing craft.

Lets also acknowledge there is value to demonstrating our resolve to countries other than Colombia. We expect an ROI for the USA and one of the ways for your country to show it is eagerly facilitating the return of your citizen to you when they break the law in the USA.

Well, you have to do more than that, apparently. You also have to be willing to allow us to change longstanding approaches and allow U.S. military aircraft to enter your airspace in lieu of civilian aircraft (even though that would be something that we, like many countries, would be loathe to allow).

So we've demonstrated to countries other than Colombia that we're willing to inflict enormous economic harm to them in response to perfectly legitimate concerns over the most minor of matters. We should not be surprised if they learn from that demonstration that cooperating with the United States may be one-sided, tenuous, and subject to enormous risk in the near future. We sure showed them what we think of generally friendly countries! Just wait until we impose massive tariffs on some of our closest allies - the lessons they'll learn from that!

A Space Force base is not an expeditionary force.

It's got a runway. You can, you know, land planes there. With guys on them.
You guys are really 'round the bend if you think we're going to roll up on Greenland MacArthur-style.

You also have to be willing to allow us to change longstanding approaches and allow U.S. military aircraft to enter your airspace in lieu of civilian aircraft (even though that would be something that we, like many countries, would be loathe to allow).

Right, we've never had military exercises with the Colombians and we've never had any cargo aircraft fly down. Are you under the impression we flew down some F-22s and busted their ADIZ or something? Had a strike package stacked up in the clouds ready to go Wild Weasel on their IAD systems?

But we're not farting around anymore with US national security, and it's been too long since we took it seriously.

You really don't get it, though albaby has patiently tried to enlighten you. Trump is NOT making us stronger, he is making us weaker.

He seems intent on turning the US into a pariah to the rest of the world.

By the by.

Has anyone bothered to think about WHY the ICE guys have been able to round up so many p3dos, r@pists, murderers and general ne'er do wells so quickly?

Anyone have a clue?

Right, we've never had military exercises with the Colombians and we've never had any cargo aircraft fly down.

Over their objections? We've previously replaced a regular schedule of civilian service with military aircraft for no reason related to the objective of that service?

I'm really curious your examples of this - or even an example where we have been willing to let another country decide on their own to simply replace a civilian flight with a military one at their discretion.

BTW - one minor irony? Colombia is one of the few countries on earth that we had a positive balance of trade with. One of the few nations in the world that had opened up their economy to us more than we brought in from them. - albaby

---------------

An irony for sure but this is not about trade at all other than as a tool to use in the higher order objective to establish operational control over our borders with an emphasis on the South in this case. However I am sure our partners to the North learned just how serious we are about establishing and enforcing border security for our sovereign nation.

The mind of BHM, I stalled on the above as I was about to hit Send when I thought, "Should I use the word "establishing" or the word "re-establishing"? I thought about it for longer than you might think and finally decided to add this after thought to perhaps stimulate some interesting conversation.

Which word really begs the question, did we ever at any time in our history have border security? I don't think we ever have and stuck with the word "establishing". We may have never had it but nevertheless, we need it now. We must adapt to the realities of present times which now demand among other things, secure borders.

Again, if all it takes to throw Colombia into China's camp is one incident, then they were already 99% of the way there.

Stupid argument, stupid statement.

I'm really curious your examples of this - or even an example where we have been willing to let another country decide on their own to simply replace a civilian flight with a military one at their discretion.

No, I'm really curious as to your examples of how you think law-enforcement related transpo flights are handled. Do you think these guys - convicted criminals, all - are flown in luxury accommodations routinely?

Has anyone bothered to think about WHY the ICE guys have been able to round up so many p3dos, r@pists, murderers and general ne'er do wells so quickly?

Anyone have a clue?

Hmmm....there's a few options. The most likely is that because even at this moment of peak effort, they weren't getting more total arrests than the average of the entirety of the Biden administration (only a few hundred per day):

https://www.washingtonpost.com/immigration/2025/01...

Also there's the fact that ICE is also conducting workplace raids, which are resulting in arrests of people who aren't "p3dos, r@pists, or murderers":

However, workplace raids mostly result in the arrests of working individuals who happen to be undocumented.

“None of these people were rapists or murderers or criminals,” Baraka said about the people picked up in the Newark raid.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/immigration-ra...

But perhaps that's not correct. Any stats comparing the number of r@pists or murderers picked up in these raids vs. the average over the Biden era?

No, I'm really curious as to your examples of how you think law-enforcement related transpo flights are handled. Do you think these guys - convicted criminals, all - are flown in luxury accommodations routinely?

Of course they're not flown in "luxury accommodations," as well you know. But they aren't flown in military aircraft, as a general matter. Again, unless you have some actual examples of Colombia being okay with us switching military aircraft in for formerly civilian transportation? Otherwise, it sounds like this was a relatively reasonable matter for them to raise as a concern, and a reasonable response would have been to have a conversation and use civilian aircraft while we work it out - rather than have the President unilaterally impose massive tariffs over it.

Hmmm....there's a few options.

You missed the most interesting one.

They already knew where all those guys were.

Which begs the question. Why weren't they deported before?

You want to know why Biden lost, there it is in a nutshell. BTW Biden got rid of all workplace enforcement.

Of course they're not flown in "luxury accommodations," as well you know. But they aren't flown in military aircraft, as a general matter.

Okay. So we've established they're not coming down in Business or First Class. Great.

We fly prisoners all the time. They wear restraints for officers' safety.

Using military flights the same way we transport soldiers around the globe is therefore...not all that different than what's already always been done, except this time Columbia decided to raise a stink about it *and* refuse some flights while they were already downbound.

Hmmm. Might the more diplomatically prudent thing to do on their side would be to allow the planes to land, then ring up Washington, D.C. to ask why the change? As opposed to starting a diplomatic row over the seat class provided by the US government?

All this angst is looking very performative.

A relatively peaceful and stable ally - albaby

--------------

I take it you did not read that analysis of Colombia's political landscape that I lonked the other day. That was the one where I coined the summary description of the situation in Colombia as a "prickly tangle" suggesting it would require a long term outside force to establish order, not US we learned about the futility of nation building in Afghanistan. Perhaps you remember and no big deal if you don't...

I just don't accept the premise of "peaceful and stable". There is nothing stable about that country that I can find evidence of. Corruption and cartels and crime are scaring the bejesus out of the entire civilian population is what our partners governance looks like to me. That's all.

You missed the most interesting one.

They already knew where all those guys were.

That seems unlikely. They're not arresting many more people than were arrested on any given day during the Biden administration - and that with increasing workplace raids. Which isn't what you would expect if there was a deep pool of people that were high-priority targets (like murderers and rapists) that were known to the ICE, but they weren't bothering to go after.

Seems like they're just catching more or less the same number of the criminals that were supposed to be a priority, but now going after ordinary non-criminals (but for their immigration violation) through workplace raids because Trump wants the numbers to be higher.

Using military flights the same way we transport soldiers around the globe is therefore...not all that different than what's already always been done, except this time Columbia decided to raise a stink about it *and* refuse some flights while they were already downbound.

Yeah - because countries will allow civilian aircraft to enter their jurisdiction all the time, but are usually very particular about when they allow the military of a foreign government to enter their airspace.

As opposed to starting a diplomatic row over the seat class provided by the US government?

Again, I'm waiting for you to provide an example of when the U.S. was just fine with letting a foreign government substitute in a military aircraft in lieu of a civilian aircraft. That's not a "seat class" issue - countries will not typically allow a foreign country's military aircraft to operate in their airspace over their objection.

You missed the most interesting one.

They already knew where all those guys were.

LOL, you are so gullible.

I take it you did not read that analysis of Colombia's political landscape that I lonked the other day.

Briefly. But I'm not lauding Colombia as a paradise on earth. Rather, that they have a relatively stable government that recently underwent a successful transition of power through a democratic election in 2022 and the 2016 Peace Accord with FARC seems to be holding. That's a pretty good result for a modest amount of foreign aid, relative to the costs associated with having a country riven by civil war (or a failed state) in the region.

Jesus H. Fuck, we’ve being governed by ill-tempered imbeciles and illiterates.

the thing is, Donny created this problem — where none had previously existed — just by being a dick. the Biden Administration had been sending deportation flights to Colombia for years, without incident.

Colombia accepted 475 deportation flights from the U.S. from 2020 to 2024, fifth behind Guatemala, Honduras, Mexico and El Salvador, according to Witness at the Border, an advocacy group that tracks flight data. It accepted 124 deportation flights in 2024.

the Biden people, of course, treated their deportees with respect. but showing kindness and dignity to fellow human beings is a bridge way too fucking far for Team Donny — because cruelty, as always, is the point.

the White House, of course, is misreading the situation and taking an unearned victory lap — and the worthless scribblers of the corporate-controlled media are only too happy to play along.

--“Today’s events make clear to the world that America is respected again,” White House press secretary Karoline Leavitt said in a statement on Sunday announcing that the Colombian government had agreed to accept flights of deported migrants from the U.S. after President Donald Trump threatened steep tariffs.--

you’re not respected, you insolent fucking bullies. you’re loathed — and not just by Colombia.

welcome to the opposite of diplomacy. say hello to governance by hissy-fit and tantrum.

since taking office, Donny has given the finger to our staunchest allies, and created chaos up and down the western hemisphere — just because he can. because he gets off on creating chaos, and being the biggest asshole in the room. the last seven days have been an absolute foreign policy nightmare.

Tiedrich

And it provides plenty of opportunity for corrupt MAGA contractors to rip off Uncle Sam. Perfect.

Yeah. I know. But the actual dollars just aren't that big. And if we can keep MAGA busy doing something relatively cheap and not terribly harmful, it's a tradeoff that seems worthwhile for the lessons that they might finally learn.

--Peter

That seems unlikely.

Oh really. So they did all the police work and investigation of thousands of crooks and had locations on these guys in a matter of hours?

No, my dude. They already knew where those people were. They knew right where to pick a lot of them up.

That could have happen at any time in the past 4 years and yet it didn't.

Yeah - because countries will allow civilian aircraft to enter their jurisdiction all the time, but are usually very particular about when they allow the military of a foreign government to enter their airspace.

So you're back to us busting their ADIZ. You seriously think that's what happened?
You understand that from a country-to-country point of view there's very little distinction between a US Marshall Service's Gulfstream and an Air Force Gulfstream, right? And that both require government clearance from the destination to land?

You're making a mountain out of a molehill and there's another critical detail you missed.

The Kamala people here are all wanting to be advocates for illegal aliens.

Not for Americans.

"But the actual dollars just aren't that big. "

As of September 12, 2019, the Trump administration plans for "Between 450 and 500 miles (724–806 kilometers) of fencing along the nearly 2,000-mile (3,218-kilometer) border by the end of 2020" with an estimated total cost of $18.4 billion.

Seems big to me, but then I'm old.

It's got a runway. You can, you know, land planes there. With guys on them.
You guys are really 'round the bend if you think we're going to roll up on Greenland MacArthur-style.

Any military force, if it is not in service to the mission of the Space Force unit there will be viewed as hostile. You think they'll simply roll over and give Greenland to us?

Do you believe that this is how nations should conduct their affairs?

"All your bases are belong to us"?

If we want something, we just take it?

This is how Russia and China conduct their affairs. Not the United States. Not any country in the post WW2 alignment of democracies....

Then again, we are fast slipping away from anything resembling "democracy"

So we "graduate" to the new rules of the road: If you want it, take it if you can.

just a quick notable observation....
Unless I'm missing something, this thread has now run longer than any thread since I've been here.

estimated total cost of $18.4 billion.

The whole F-35 program is looking to be north of $1 Trillion over the plane's useful lifetime. And that's if we don't trash a few in combat and decide to buy a few more.

$18 billion is around 2% of the annual military budget. Heck, we could probably find that lying around in the Pentagon's couch cushions. Of course, they may need that money to pay for deportation flights at 10 times the cost of chartered commercial flights. Then again, if we get 'em all deported, we won't need the wall any more.

A billion here and a billion there, and soon you're talking about real money. -Senator Dirkson, an awful long time ago. A billion just doesn't buy you as much these days.

--Peter

PS - Yes, I should multiply that 18 billion by 4 since it was for only a quarter of the total border. Feel free to do that. Then make it 2% of the military budget for each of the 4 painfully long years of the Trump administration. (Unless a miracle happens, people come to their senses in the mid-terms and he makes more impeachment history as the only President to successfully be impeached. But I suspect that is an extremely low probability event.)

Using military flights the same way we transport soldiers around the globe is therefore...not all that different than what's already always been done,

Are they handcuffed and forced to sit on the deck?
Are food, water and access to a toilet withheld from them... on a hot flight with no air-conditioning?

Oh really. So they did all the police work and investigation of thousands of crooks and had locations on these guys in a matter of hours?

No. Why would you think that? Throughout the Biden administration, they also arrested several hundred illegal immigrants every single day. That doesn't mean that each of those investigations was started and finished that day, in a matter of hours. It's because there's always investigations and interviews and new people that caught on new violations or get identified on an old warrant or who get turned in by someone and....well, you get the point.

Add into that the fact that ICE is now just rolling into workplaces to do raids - catching more people they didn't have a location on. Oh, and deporting people who were legally present under the Temporary Protected Status that was in place until Trump revoked it - it's no great feat to deport people whose locations you knew because they were here legally until you changed their status.

Trump's real problem, which he's just now beginning to face, is that ICE was always arresting and deporting immigrants. Yes, also during the Biden years - and by the end, they were maxing out current capacity, deporting close to a thousand per day. It's going to be super hard for Trump to exceed those numbers by any great amount for any length of time until he gets some serious additional funding. Which isn't going to happen for a while, since it looks like Congress is going to do one reconciliation bill instead of two - which is what Thune and the Senate were trying to tell him.

You understand that from a country-to-country point of view there's very little distinction between a US Marshall Service's Gulfstream and an Air Force Gulfstream, right? And that both require government clearance from the destination to land?

So it should be relatively easy for you to point to a few examples of when the U.S. has allowed another country's military to just decide - unilaterally - that they were going to enter our airspace with a military aircraft in lieu of a civilian one. Right? To show that the the thing that the Colombians complained about actually happens all the time?

Or maybe it's because Colombia, which accepted 124 deportation flights last year, actually had some genuine objections to the unilateral changes that Trump decided to make? That instead of chartering a flight, which was both standard practice for years and years and cheaper than a military flight, Trump decided to disrupt years and years of unproblematic deportation flights for PR purposes - so that he could look like he was doing something different than Biden had done?

legally present under the Temporary Protected Status that was in place until Trump revoked it - albaby

---------------

Did anyone ever explain to them what "Temporary" means?

Oh, and deporting people who were legally present under the Temporary Protected Status

Do you have evidence that this is who they’re deporting?

there's very little distinction between a US Marshall Service's Gulfstream and an Air Force Gulfstream, right?

Of course, the Air Force didn't send a Gulfstream to Colombia. They sent a C-17, which is perfectly capable of carrying some significant military weaponry and/or personnel.

So you're just tossing up another strawman to keep from admitting that Trump made a huge mistake here, setting relations back between the US and Colombia, and the rest of the world for that matter.

It was about a dumb a thing to do as one could come up with.

--Peter

Of course, the Air Force didn't send a Gulfstream to Colombia. They sent a C-17, which is perfectly capable of carrying some significant military weaponry and/or personnel.

Right. We’re just gonna start running guns into Colombia just for grins.

Or maybe somebody said, “let’s send a bigger plane so we can send down more people”. And the Colombians - who receive US military flights all the time / decided to wig out about it.

No, you people are having an emotional meltdown.

Just like Albaby said:

SNIP While the US is historically Colombia’s top trade partner, Petro has already been strengthening ties with China. During the period on Sunday when US tariffs looked imminent, Petro called for deepening his nation’s connections with other markets. Having seen Colombia’s experience, other countries may follow suit.
“You have to wonder if there’s a Pyrrhic victory here, because the more countries see this threat, the more they start turning and looking at ways that they can diversify their own trading relationships,” Lipsky said. “There is a cost long term to the overuse of the threat. I think they broadly got the result they wanted here, but I do think there’ll be more cost throughout the region in the months to come.” SNIP

https://archive.is/BUjdA#selection-1803.0-1807.411

Of course, the Air Force didn't send a Gulfstream to Colombia. They sent a C-17, which is perfectly capable of carrying some significant military weaponry and/or personnel.

Right. We’re just gonna start running guns into Colombia just for grins.

There are guns, other weapons, and military gear all through Latin America that we gave/sold them. One drug lord in Mexico had an anti-aircraft gun. Yeats ago there was a fellow on this board that claimed we flew jets up from Panama to Guatemala (I think) on missions. Someone hear talked about Walker, Old Grey Eyes, who ventured into Mexico, Nicaragua, Honduras, Costa Rica. The Brits let him go once, but they second time they gave him to Honduras (I think) and he got a firing squad. We backed the overthrow of a democratically elected President in Chile because he was a socialist, and other countries. Dope was in Ecuador and we destabilized that to help coups to oust people who talked to Castro. We occupied Nicaragua for a while. Trump made an attempted regime change in Venezuela - so they're within their rights to not want our military planes coming down. United Fruit repressed the folks in Guatemala, they elected a fellow to deal with that and we endorsed a coup. Under Reagan ee endorsed rounding up Mayans and putting them in camps where they were forced to learn Catholicism. And there's more. We aren't nice.

Dope was in Ecuador and we destabilized that to help coups to oust people who talked to Castro.

Yup, you’ve busted me. I’ve been destabilizing foreign governments for the CIA for going on 24 years now.

Yup, you’ve busted me. I’ve been destabilizing foreign governments for the CIA for going on 24 years now.

You’ve certainly been destabilizing this one for 20 years that I know of…

;-)

What ever happened to the Monroe Doctrine? Would that even be legal today? If so, we could use that. Even if it wasn't specifically pointed at China when Monroe did it.

The Monroe Doctrine was a set of foreign policy principles, not a law - so it's not a question of "legal" vs. "not legal." But I'm not sure how applicable it is.

The Doctrine basically told the European powers that the U.S. would not tolerate new European interference in the Western Hemisphere. But it was formulated at a time when major European involvement in the affairs of other countries had a very different form than what we see today - establishing colonies, replete with full naval and military installations. The U.S. was setting policy that we would oppose European nations establishing anything like that going forward. That aspect of the Doctrine certainly survived into modern times, as we saw during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

But that's not what China's doing. Their "Belt and Road Initiative" comprises a lot of direct foreign investment and bilateral trade as a way of building up their presence and influence in other countries. We've never really asserted that that kind of activity - ostensibly voluntary economic and trade relations - constitutes the kind of interference in the affairs of the Western Hemisphere that the Doctrine would apply to. Basically, the Chinese strategy is mostly "be nice." Invest a ton of money and accelerate economic development in the target country, which leads to popular sentiment in favor of China, which leads the populace to support politicians that are favorable to China. Actual diplomacy, rather than gunboat diplomacy.

It's a more subtle way of increasing their global hegemony. They gain de facto control over raw materials and other strategically important assets through economic arrangements, rather than de jeure seizing territory or establishing formal colonies or military force.

Basically, the Chinese strategy is mostly "be nice." Invest a ton of money and accelerate economic development in the target country, which leads to popular sentiment in favor of China, which leads the populace to support politicians that are favorable to China. Actual diplomacy, rather than gunboat diplomacy.


Heh. This is what you think Belt and Road is? Good neighbor stuff?

lol.

Heh. This is what you think Belt and Road is? Good neighbor stuff?

I have to agree with Dope here.

Chinese aid comes not with strings, but with roped.

American foreign policy was actually making inroads among countries trying to wean themselves from Chinese “foreign aid”…… loans in exchange for military bases or port access, security systems to help autocratic regimes track their citizens.

There’s been quite the backlash in some areas of the developing world.


Unfortunately for us, Trump isn’t going to win many friends with stunts like he pulled in Colombia.

So you're just tossing up another strawman to keep from admitting that Trump made a huge mistake here

But Trump sees it as a smashing success. Because the MAGA cult thinks he is 'tough', and you can be sure that is how FOX, et al will report it.

Did you see the photo that Trump put up? Him with an old style mob boss hat on and a glowering face. And FAFO in the background. He knows how to manipulate the MAGA cult.

Heh. This is what you think Belt and Road is? Good neighbor stuff?

Not at all. As I alluded to in my post, China isn't doing this out of the goodness of their hearts. They're doing it as a concerted and deliberate strategy to gain strategic control and influence in countries around the world. That's the point. This isn't charity or beneficence, but it is smart.

Take Panama. China wants to make sure the Canal is always open to their ships. Rather than threaten Panama, China's approach is to "kill 'em with kindness" - invest a ton in Panama, offer to build all kinds of infrastructure there (a fourth bridge across the Canal! High speed rail to Costa Rica!), foster positive working relationships with the elected government, etc. They are smart enough to realize that they don't actually need to own the Canal - they just need the government of Panama to regard them positively. So they invite Panama to join the Belt and Road (which Panama did in 2018), and promote tons of projects in the country.

It's been working. China is now South America's largest trading partner (larger than the U.S.). They've gotten other South American countries to join the Belt and Road, to great effect - most recently China built a massive modern mega-port in Peru.

They must be thrilled at the opening that they're being given here. Not only has the nascent Administration been publicly antagonizing Colombia and Panama, but they've also suspended not just all foreign aid, but also all of our government foreign investment programs. We've basically cleared the field for China all over the world. A recent quote discusses that dynamic in the context of Panama, but now it will apply all over Latin America:

Cui Shoujun, director of the Research Center for Latin American Studies at Renmin University in Beijing, expressed confidence that China’s relations with Panama would keep growing, despite American efforts to stymie them.

Mr. Trump might even push Panama closer to Beijing, he added. “You have an extremely domineering American president, and a pragmatic Chinese partner,” he said. Faced with that choice, he said, “the answer is self-evident.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/15/world/asia/chin...

I have to agree with Dope here.

Chinese aid comes not with strings, but with roped.

Of course. That's the point. China isn't doing this because they are kind - it is doing this because they are smart. There's massive conditions that recipient countries have to accept along with Chinese aid - but those countries are still taking the deal, all over the globe. Not every country, and not without hiccups and setbacks; but overall, it's been enormously effective.

What we're doing now is making the Chinese deal - with all its flaws - look even better. Sure there are strings (or ropes) attached with doing business with China. But looking at what's happening to Colombia, Panama, and Denmark...are the conditions in the fine print any better if you're exclusively in the American sphere of influence these days?

What we're doing now is making the Chinese deal - with all its flaws - look even better. Sure there are strings (or ropes) attached with doing business with China. But looking at what's happening to Colombia, Panama, and Denmark...are the conditions in the fine print any better if you're exclusively in the American sphere of influence these days?

This!
Exclamation point!

Trump still thinks he’s operating in the age of gunboat diplomacy…. Goes with his fascination with the gilded age, I suppose.

I don’t know what it’s going to take for him to realize that his actions are accomplishing precisely the opposite foreign policy objectives from what he intends…….

I don’t know what it’s going to take for him to realize that his actions are accomplishing precisely the opposite foreign policy objectives from what he intends…….

Nothing.

He's a narcissist without an ounce of self-awareness.

As I alluded to in my post, China isn't doing this out of the goodness of their hearts. They're doing it as a concerted and deliberate strategy to gain strategic control and influence in countries around the world. That's the point. This isn't charity or beneficence, but it is smart.


No you said it wasn't gunboat diplomacy. It most assuredly is.

I think you need to read up more on the Belt and Road and especially on what Italy thought of it.

They must be thrilled at the opening that they're being given here. Not only has the nascent Administration been publicly antagonizing Colombia and Panama, but they've also suspended not just all foreign aid, but also all of our government foreign investment programs. We've basically cleared the field for China all over the world.

Yup. That's what we're doing, making it easier for the Chinese to take over the world. 你好!

No, you know that's an exaggeration.

I don't think he does. We're seeing a new side to him. The side that says "if America's interests rely on us owning the Panama Canal, then we should own it" (paraphrased, but that's what he said last week...and Greenland...). Basically, he's saying we should be the school yard bully because we can.

No wonder we now have a POTUS that is even worse at foreign policy than he is domestic policy. China has got to be loving it, and when we abandon Ukraine, Russia will have a party.

I don't think he does.

I don't think- actually, I know you don't know what you're talking about. If you have something to say, say it; passive aggressive is so Seattle.

Basically, he's saying we should be the school yard bully because we can.

This statement is FOS.

No you said it wasn't gunboat diplomacy. It most assuredly is.

I think you need to read up more on the Belt and Road and especially on what Italy thought of it.

I'm well aware. Italy agreed to join the Belt and Road back in 2019 or so (the only G7 country to do so, IIRC) - and then withdrew last year. They thought better of moving into the Chinese sphere of influence.

That doesn't make it gunboat diplomacy - you didn't have Chinese warships steaming into the Adriatic to force Rome to sign the MOU. They joined it willingly because China offers a lot of investment and economic benefits, and at that time international relations with China globally were far more positive. They later withdrew because global attitudes towards China hardened, which made the "strings" more painful than the benefits.

But most countries that have joined the BRI have stayed in the BRI. Because China's playing a very smart long-term game.

Yup. That's what we're doing, making it easier for the Chinese to take over the world.

You're certainly making it easier for them to extend their economic, strategic, and political influence. It's not your goal, but it's the consequence of the U.S. deciding to withdraw from the field on which "soft power" contests are waged. It's popular in more isolationist movements to kill all your foreign aid, your foreign direct investing and lending programs, your participation in international groups, to throttle back international trade. But that just means that China gets to operate in those fields without any counter by the U.S.

There's a reason why we now regard China as a threat - and it's in large part because they've amassed all this economic and political influence across the globe. They've been going around locking up massive amounts of strategic raw materials and resources, and they've been doing it through the exact methods that Trump has decided that the U.S. isn't going to bother with any more.

Just because your intent isn't to make it easier for the Chinese to take over the world doesn't mean that you're not taking actions that can have that result.

Italy agreed to join the Belt and Road back in 2019 or so (the only G7 country to do so, IIRC) - and then withdrew last year. They thought better of moving into the Chinese sphere of influence.

There was much more to it than that.

Just because your intent isn't to make it easier for the Chinese to take over the world doesn't mean that you're not taking actions that can have that result.

You're making the same fatal mistake that all D.C. bureaucrats have been for a long time: That what we're doing was a path to success. It wasn't. Quite the opposite.

And despite the silly Eeyore and 'we're turning into bullies and bully bad' arrant nonsense that's being bandied about by some of the slower board members, there are legit things that need to be examined in the modern world. Being able to do that dispassionately is what separates higher level thinking from the emotionally-driven rending of garments that some are doing.

Was driving home listening to CanTalk on Sirius XM last night (it's a Canadian talk show about Canadian politics). Fascinating show. The host was freaked out about tariffs and Canada having to "look elsewhere" for partners. This went on for a while before a defense expert came on the show. The guy said, "Hey, the United States is signaling that we can't count on them to the same degree as in the past". She asked what he meant. Dude said "Welllllll....we have a lot of coveted territory to defend".

The host then asked what he meant. He said Canada was an Arctic Nation, home to countless resources and noted that many nations want the minerals, oil and gas, shipping access and fish. He then dropped the news on the show that Canada's armed forces were woefully unprepared for literally anything: their readiness level is about 50%.

She asked, "What does that mean?" He replied, "If we need to do something, only half of what we have on paper is able to do it". Also noted that while the Liberal Government has talked a big game they haven't actually done anything - no real readiness increases and they're way under the 2% GDP target.

It's another thread to lay out what should be obvious but evidently needs to be spelled out. A conflict is coming. I've told you that there are those in the federal government that think 2027 is the year (but the strategic rocket forces debacle likely delays that). It's time to prepare.

Dope was in Ecuador and we destabilized that to help coups to oust people who talked to Castro.

Yup, you’ve busted me. I’ve been destabilizing foreign governments for the CIA for going on 24 years now.

Don't flatter yourself, we have pros who destabilize, but we do need some comic relief.

But that's not what China's doing. Their "Belt and Road Initiative" comprises a lot of direct foreign investment and bilateral trade as a way of building up their presence and influence in other countries.

That's not what they're doing now. But they appear to be laying the groundwork for expansion into military bases. I read a few months ago that China was building facilities for their navy in one of the African nations, for example.

Longer ago than I remember...it was Djibouti.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Liberatio....

And they're planning a second one in Equatorial Guinea:

https://ecfr.eu/article/chinas-new-military-base-i...

It's not just about relations and resources. They are expanding their global military presence. And the Felon was a gift, trashing relations with our allies and tepid-allies (like Colombia).

Take Panama. China wants to make sure the Canal is always open to their ships. Rather than threaten Panama, China's approach is to "kill 'em with kindness" - invest a ton in Panama, offer to build all kinds of infrastructure there (a fourth bridge across the Canal! High speed rail to Costa Rica!), foster positive working relationships with the elected government, etc. They are smart enough to realize that they don't actually need to own the Canal - they just need the government of Panama to regard them positively. So they invite Panama to join the Belt and Road (which Panama did in 2018), and promote tons of projects in the country.

And illustrates what I was saying a few days ago...in this case, it was "China First" policy. Indirect, and not obvious (like Chinese infrastructure in China), but it greatly benefits China to be investing these resources in (for example) Panama.

"America First" isn't going to come from rounding up all the brown people and deporting them. It's about strategic relationships, cooperation, foreign aid and investments. Those sorts of policies are "America First" because they make us economically stronger, and more secure. Having China in our hemisphere does not make us more secure.

There was much more to it than that.

No doubt. But there was no "gunboat diplomacy." China didn't use force of arms to make Italy sign the MOU, and didn't respond with military force when they decided to leave.

You're making the same fatal mistake that all D.C. bureaucrats have been for a long time: That what we're doing was a path to success.

No, I'm not. I don't assume what we're doing was effective - I'm just pointing out that what Trump's proposing is worse.

China's been eating our lunch on the global stage because we do not, and have not, been prioritizing economic investment in foreign economies as part of our strategic and security plans....while China has. China recognizes that every mine they dig, every port they build, every piece of infrastructure they invest in out in Africa and South America and underdeveloped countries across the world gives them a geopolitical security benefit. Here in the U.S., isolationists have been teaching the American public that all of that stuff is just charity - we do it because we are bleeding hearts. When in fact the truth is that we do it (and used to do it more) because it was smart national security.

Which is the irony of this discussion. You recognize that when China sends all this money abroad to these developing countries across the world, that they're not doing it to be generous but are doing it to foster their own national interests and promote their power; but if the U.S. does the same thing, it's criticized as being for the benefit of those countries' populations and inconsistent with "America First."

That's not what they're doing now. But they appear to be laying the groundwork for expansion into military bases. I read a few months ago that China was building facilities for their navy in one of the African nations, for example.

Oh, sure - they're not doing it in the Western Hemisphere, though.

But yes - China is using their positive economic and diplomatic relations with the Belt and Road countries to allow them to broaden their military footprint. The same way we have bases throughout Europe (and in Greenland, too). They're doing it by mutual cooperation with governments that are made more friendly by massive development assistance and shared economic interests, rather than trying to seize territory directly through threats and reprisals. Seems to be working well for them.

This statement is FOS

The statement was on target from what I can see.

Trump is a thin skinned bully who is going after everything and anyone who doesn’t bend to his misshapen will.

The only questionable aspect of the statement is in the use of the word “schoolyard”

Trump has graduated from the schoolyard and has taken his roadshow to the world.

Oh, sure - they're not doing it in the Western Hemisphere, though.

Not yet. But this fiasco with Colombia is opening the door for the Chinese. First economic aid, then eventually a naval base. Then missiles (just like Cuba 65 years ago). Etc.

No you said it wasn't gunboat diplomacy. It most assuredly is.

I think you need to read up more on the Belt and Road and especially on what Italy thought of it.

Here;s the definition:

Gunboat diplomacy is an aggressive, showy kind of foreign policy. When a country employs gunboat diplomacy, it uses its military power to force other nations to do what it wants them to do.

Please show us where China aggressively, and with a showy flair of military power, forced Italy to do anything.

SNIP As it became clear that the BRI would not be an economic panacea, the Italian government began to reassess whether it should continue its membership. For the past year, Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni has indicated that joining the BRI was a “big mistake” that she intended to correct by withdrawing from the initiative. Meloni cited the lack of benefits that accrued to Italy after joining the BRI, noting that “Italy is the only G7 member that signed up to the accession memorandum to the Silk Road, but it is not the European or Western country with the strongest economic relations and trade flows with China.” Most recently, Italian Defense Minister Guido Crosetto called Italy’s decision to join the BRI an “improvised and atrocious act.” SNIP

"Benefits accrue" sure doesn't sound like "forced".

This statement is FOS.

Not really. You alluded to it at least in two threads. One was Diego Garcia, and the other was the "war with Denmark or Panama" thread. In both threads, you reiterated that national security trumps everything else, with the clear statement that we should not have "given up" the Canal, and we should not leave Diego Garcia (despite it not being a recognized US territory).

As an aside, you also mentioned that the Dems didn't see China as an urgent threat, while in the next breath saying we were no longer going to "bankroll" [your exact word] the lifestyles of "partners" [referring to foreign nations]. Which just adds context to your comments in this thread, basically saying the Colombia shouldn't have a problem with US military aircraft in their airspace (and if they do, they can lump it apparently). So, China is an urgent threat, but we should bully and abuse our partners to get our way, regardless of international norms or courtesy. Yeah...that won't push them into China's arms.

I did get the times wrong, though. It wasn't last week. It was 2-3 weeks ago (both threads).

Nothing passive aggressive. It's what you wrote, which anyone can look back on to see.

Not really.

No, 100%.

As an aside, you also mentioned that the Dems didn't see China as an urgent threat

They do not. The democrats are essentially useless on national security.

while in the next breath saying we were no longer going to "bankroll" [your exact word] the lifestyles of "partners" [referring to foreign nations]

Which is also true.

Which just adds context to your comments in this thread, basically saying the Colombia shouldn't have a problem with US military aircraft in their airspace (and if they do, they can lump it apparently).

I'm saying they made a mountain out of a molehill for the purposes of testing Trump. It's a fairly simple point.

So, China is an urgent threat, but we should bully and abuse our partners to get our way, regardless of international norms or courtes

This is your logic, which I reject.

"Those sorts of policies are "America First" because they make us economically stronger, and more secure. Having China in our hemisphere does not make us more secure."

Ever wonder what happens if the $dollar loses it's DeFacto status as the world's currency ?

I think it would mean that there would be real consequences to the Fed conjuring money out
of thin air. Other nations would want to be compensated for accepting inflated greenbacks
for their goods and services they supply America with. And I know the value of the dollar drops every year. But it hasn't seen hyper inflation.

We run deficits every year, and I really don't think the American people have really felt the full brunt of that. GWB started and ran an unbelievably costly war, and I believe he cut taxes during those campaigns. So Americans, as a whole, did not feel any pain from those blunders (not talking about the soldiers wounded or killed, or their families. They felt it ) Americans state that they want a balanced budget, but they only want cuts in things that don't directly affect them. If the dollar loses its status as the worlds currency, things are gonna get stark in America. Trump is gonna push the world toward alliances apart from America. And those nations would be smart to look elsewhere for an ally and trade partner for their imports and exports.

This is your logic, which I reject.

Glad to hear that. But that's not what you write...constantly. You seem to be OK with the bullying and intimidation. The subtleties of diplomacy, partnerships, and aid, seem to be aenethema to you (and the right in general, not just you). Albaby explained about Colombia, and you write it off as a "molehill". Were the roles reversed, and Colombia was sending a military transport to Miami International (without permission), you might have an issue with it.

There is no need to test the Felon. Everyone already knows what he is, and how he'll likely react.

Ass:"I'm not even going to bother to quote you if you're going to be an ass.

The mind of BHM, I stalled on the above as I was about to hit Send when I thought, "Should I use the word "establishing" or the word "re-establishing"? I thought about it for longer than you might think and finally decided to add this after thought to perhaps stimulate some interesting conversation.

You defended faaaaalacies.

I went clamming. Limited out.

Lets not forget all the videos of streams of young, fit, single, Chinese men that poured into our country through our porous border. What are they up to?</i.>

Working on railroads?

Stealing our gold?

Selling opium?

Screwing our women?

Selling us food?

Taking over our cities?

If only we had a piece of legislation that could keep them out of our country.

>>Lets not forget all the videos of streams of young, fit, single, Chinese men that poured into our country through our porous border. What are they up to?<<<<

Working on railroads?

Stealing our gold?

Selling opium?

Screwing our women?

Selling us food?

Taking over our cities?

h<>If only we had a piece of legislation that could keep them out of our country. - Phoolish

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That is a long way to say you don't know either.

Lets not forget all the videos of streams of young, fit, single, Chinese men that poured into our country through our porous border. What are they up to?

----------------

That is a long way to say you don't know either.

I don't know about the rest of them. But Biden got China to start taking back deported Chinese. He did this without threatening tariffs, the normal diplomatic way. For one of the Chinese staying, I agree that they should be allowed to stay.

The fellow made a long lease on a piece of land, built a 100 room apartment building and profitably leased it out. He fought with the CCP in court when they tried to take it back from him - and won. Then the beatings began. His wife and he would get beaten by Chinese authority's goons, and it got so bad he divorced his wife so she wouldn't get beaten. Saw an add and came to the USA with one of his daughters.

Maybe we could get China to stop the adds? Someone is charging $30,000 to get people to the USA - and then chain migration! I sure hope that guy gets to bring over his wife and kids.

And you people aren't doing anything other than having another emotional meltdown.

If you think "lolololololol" is a good response, you are having the meltdown because you can't respond to that. In the "kids playing in a sandbox" analogy of international affairs, it's easy to see that Charlie Brown might start buying sandwiches and cookies from Linus after Lucy throws a tirade and makes threats. Gets to you, eh?