Post New

Unfortunately there is no way to prevent these massacres from taking place...
except the things that work in every other civilized country.

Americans are 20 times more likely to be victims of gun violence than those of other developed nations.

Thoughts & Prayers

An interesting article studies the school murders phenomena. It identifies causes and effects, responses, possible solutions..... in Brazil.

The article discusses the copycat mentality being encouraged online.

It confirms that firearms attacks are the most deadly.

Knife attackers are more commonly confronted and stopped, so less casualties. Cites a 15 yr old girl with jiu jitsu training who successfully confronted a teenager with a hatchet.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/04/...

And - just like one side is nuts and has NO appetite to tackle the guns....

The other side wants to avoid talking about culture.


As someone on TMF said years ago - these shootings will be a normal American thing one day - no different than a bad weather report. We're not there yet.

But, it's a done deal.

Social Decay.

I always point people to Japan regarding our gun homicide problem. Japan had the same murder rate as the USA up to the end of WW2, then it dropped and is now .3 per 100k, the lowest of any developed country. I was in Japan and looked at it- not that much on how or why, but it was surprising. At the end of the war Japan was despised by its neighbors, the population picked up on that, understood in their own way what had happened, and rejected and repudiated the old way. It was the old generation that was doing the bulk of the murders. You can see the murder rate drop as the older generation died off (I found one article on this that reference other articles and some research I couldn't find, or it was in Japanese characters). While I was there an old fellow got upset with his older neighbors and bludgeoned 5 of then to death in their sleep because they didn't like his dog. But the younger folk did very few murders. So along with making guns hard to get (you can get shotguns, and while I was there two people were injured by shotguns in the surrounding area), but handguns and rifles are hard to get and they have prescribed safe/chests they must be kept in and they do surprise inspections. So its a combination of making guns hard to get, prescribed safety measures and safe storage, and the rejection and repudiation of the old ways by the population from what I found.

hey do surprise inspections. - lapsody

-------------------

That should scare you to death....

That should scare you to death....

Interesting analogy as workplace and school shootings steadily increase in frequency; children are not scared to death, but shot to death.

I'd be more concerned about a crazy person in my town having a bunch of AR15s than a safety inspection.

Safety inspections scare me as much as
Windmill noise cancer
Wearing masks during pandemics
BillGates micro-chipping vaccine
Clowns.

do surprise inspections. - lapsody

-------------------

That should scare you to death....


Not me. If all that was needed to reduce the murder rate to .3% was for me to agree to a surprise inspection on my arms storage, I'd say, "Sign me up! Right now!"

That should scare you to death....

Meh.

Here's what scares me to death:

Republican leaders are now adopting increasingly autocratic measures, using the police powers of government to impose moralized regulations, turning private citizens into enforcement officers and expelling defiant elected Democrats just as county Republican parties, particularly in Western states, are electing militia members, Christian nationalists and QAnon believers to key posts.

And increasing numbers of republicans who embrace the racist great replacement theory.

And that on the right, more and more people find violence an acceptable mean to reach a political end.

And that "22 Republican attorneys general and 67 Republican members of the U.S. House of Representatives filed amicus briefs that called on Matthew Kacsmaryk, a Federal District Court judge in Amarillo, Texas, to invalidate the Food and Drug Administration's 23-year-old approval of the abortion pill mifepristone, which he promptly went ahead and did last week."

And that women who are pregnant by rape or incest in Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Florida, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, West Virginia and Wisconsin cannot get an abortion.

And that books by Nobel Prize-winning authors are banned in many red states (and by some red local governments in blue states).

And that republicans raced to ban the teaching of critical race theory -- which was not being taught anywhere in America in K-12 classes -- and don't want students to know that Rosa Parks was black.

But guns being more reasonably regulated (and no, no one here is going to suggest surprise gun checks)?

Nope.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/12/opinion/republi...

<hey do surprise inspections. - lapsody>

<<That should scare you to death....>>

What's next, the gazpachos are gonna want to inspect my car every year?
Or have a random checkpoint to see if I'm driving drunk or wearing my seatbelt?
This is America, my right to harm you supersedes your right to not get harmed!

Facepalm...

And that on the right, more and more people find violence an acceptable mean to reach a political end.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Too funny, considering everything.

do surprise inspections. - lapsody

-------------------

That should scare you to death....
''''''''''''''''''
Not me.

Not me either. For every life a surprise inspection would save, my smile and gratitude.....and those of their family and friends....would become that much bigger.

There are areas of life where government interference is wrong.....such as determining if and why and until when....a woman can have an abortion, as one example.

And there are areas of life....especially when it's an issue of saving a life....where government active oversight is the only right thing to do.

And that on the right, more and more people find violence an acceptable mean to reach a political end.
'''''''''''''''''-
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Too funny, considering everything.

What's so funny? That you need a seeing eye dog and don't realize it?

and no, no one here is going to suggest surprise gun checks) - commonone

-----------------

Except indirectly though admiration of the Japanese System. The Japanese are so very fortunate to not have a pesky fourth amendment to interfere with government agents invading their homes at random.

Except indirectly though admiration of the Japanese System. The Japanese are so very fortunate to not have a pesky fourth amendment to interfere with government agents invading their homes at random.

That's incorrect. Other than that they call their Fourth Amendment "Article 35," it's nigh on identical to our own version.

"Article 35. The right of all persons to be secure in their homes, papers and effects against entries, searches and seizures shall not be impaired except upon warrant issued for adequate cause and particularly describing the place to be searched and things to be seized, or except as provided by Article 33.

Each search or seizure shall be made upon separate warrant issued by a competent judicial officer."

https://japan.kantei.go.jp/constitution_and_govern...

No surprise, given the U.S. effect on the reconstruction of post-WWII Japanese governmental institutions.

>>Except indirectly though admiration of the Japanese System. The Japanese are so very fortunate to not have a pesky fourth amendment to interfere with government agents invading their homes at random.<<

That's incorrect. Other than that they call their Fourth Amendment "Article 35," it's nigh on identical to our own version. - albaby

--------------------------------------

Okay, got it. But in my defense, here is bigger snip from lapsody's post, the one I was referring to.

So along with making guns hard to get (you can get shotguns, and while I was there two people were injured by shotguns in the surrounding area), but handguns and rifles are hard to get and they have prescribed safe/chests they must be kept in and they do surprise inspections.

You see, I am a member of "them" and thus am easily taken advantage of by misinformation.

What's so funny?

LOL. More famous left wing civility and skillz in debate.

And there are areas of life....especially when it's an issue of saving a life....where government active oversight is the only right thing to do.

Obviously I agree. To implement this oversight I suggest we amend the 2nd amendment with just a few words so as to not scare anybody to death.

How about "well regulated" ? Too crazy?

I have a hunch our forefathers would not object to inserting just those 2 words in the 2nd Amendment.

Me: And that on the right, more and more people find violence an acceptable mean to reach a political end.


Dope1:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Too funny, considering everything.

The facts:

Fatalities resulting from attacks by far right wing violent extremists have exceeded those caused by radical Islamist violent extremists in 10 of the 15 years, and were the same in 3 of the years since September 12, 2001. Of the 85 violent extremist incidents that resulted in death since September 12, 2001, far right wing violent extremist groups were responsible for 62 (73 percent) while radical Islamist violent extremists were responsible for 23 (27 percent).

White supremacists 'were responsible for 49 homicides in 26 attacks from 2000 to 2016 ... more than any other domestic extremist movement.

Princeton University study: When compared to individuals associated with a right-wing ideology, individuals adhering to a left-wing ideology had 68% lower odds of engaging in violent (vs. nonviolent) radical behavior (b = −1.15, SE = 0.13, odds ratio [OR] = 0.32, P < 0.001). On the other hand, the difference between individuals motivated by Islamist and right-wing causes was not significant (b = 0.05, SE = 0.14, OR = 1.05, P = 0.747).

Stanford Center for International Security and Cooperation: Though the far-right has posed a threat to the homeland for decades, the scale of far-right violence has risen significantly. According to data collected by the Center for Strategic and International Studies, far-right terrorist attacks and plots have comprised more than half of all terrorist incidents in the United States nearly every year since 2011. In 2019, far-right extremism accounted for nearly two-thirds of failed, foiled, and successful attacks. In the first half of 2020 alone, it was responsible for over 90 percent. Since 2013, the far-right has consistently been associated with more terrorist attacks and plots than left-wing, ethnonationalist, and religiously motivated perpetrators.

The Washington Post: Since 2015, right-wing extremists have been involved in 267 plots or attacks and 91 fatalities, the data shows. At the same time, attacks and plots ascribed to far-left views accounted for 66 incidents leading to 19 deaths.


Facts are pesky things.


https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/s894/BILLS-116s...

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2122593119

https://cisac.fsi.stanford.edu/mappingmilitants/fa...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/inte...

Facts are pesky things.

Yup. Which is why some people just don't bother with the.

Okay, got it. But in my defense, here is bigger snip from lapsody's post, the one I was referring to.

So along with making guns hard to get (you can get shotguns, and while I was there two people were injured by shotguns in the surrounding area), but handguns and rifles are hard to get and they have prescribed safe/chests they must be kept in and they do surprise inspections.

I can see that. But with the caveat that I am not a Japanese lawyer, surprise inspections aren't likely inconsistent with their version of the Fourth Amendment. Trivially, that's the case even here in the U.S. for firearms (and liquor and a few other things), as observed under the SCOTUS case in U.S. v. Biswell (link below).

But even without Biswell (or the Japanese analog), since the Japanese constitution does not have the equivalent of the Second Amendment it's probably okay. Gun ownership there would be legally regarded as a privilege, and it's perfectly permissible to impose consent to a search as a condition of maintaining a license/permit for a privilege. The Fourth Amendment protects you from being required to consent to a search in a criminal proceeding, but in a civil or licensing context you can be required to consent to inspection as a condition of holding the license. That's why they can force you to take a breath or sobriety test upon risk of civil</> penalty of having your driver's license revoked if you refuse. I imagine the same analysis would apply in Japan to firearm licenses.

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/406/31...

Except indirectly though admiration of the Japanese System. The Japanese are so very fortunate to not have a pesky fourth amendment to interfere with government agents invading their homes at random.

No. That's only if you have a registered weapon. What I admire about the Japanese is the rejection of the old generations violent ways and adaptation of new ways. Not the surprise inspection. They changed the mentality that was causing the murder. The proof is in the reduction of murder. That you would bypass something obvious and focus on a minor surprise inspection is telling.

Yup. Which is why some people just don't bother with the.

I know who many of these other posters are from the Fool, but I don't know you. That doesn't seem to stop you from flinging mud around at random. I'd offer some kind of olive branch, but you've not given me any reason to. Given that you don't post anything other than ya-yas to the hardcore ones here, it doesn't seem like you add much value. <click>

Facts are pesky things.


Uh, huh. I'm sure none of these "studies" or data sets are conflating incidents or mislabeling things because the left totally doesn't roll that way. For example, the entirety of the billions of dollars of BLM and Antifa (whom the left claims doesn't exist) somehow never gets mentioned in terms of actual political violence.

Or like how every. single. time. a conservative speaker tries to visit a college campus there's a left wing hate mob there to spice things up. Like attacking Riley Gains

https://abc7news.com/riley-gaines-attacked-san-fra...
Riley Gaines, outspoken critic of transgender athletes, says she was attacked during event at SFSU

Gotta love ABC's choice of headlines, also.

As for your "facts"
https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/s894/BILLS-116s..., you didn't provide the full context.
Here that is:https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senat...

The sponsor is Dick Durbin. That's all I need to say there. Let's let Andrew McCarthy at The Hill do the lifting:

https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/541379-whats-...

Antifa, the Orwellian name of a Marxist insurrectionary movement, is a terrorist threat that Democrats insist must not be seen for what it is, nor notice taken of the political ramifications ' certainly, you are not to notice that antifa colludes with such left-wing darlings as Black Lives Matter in attacks on police officers and government installations. White supremacism, by contrast, is a terrorist threat that Democrats are hell-bent on hanging like a leper's bell around the necks of their Republican opposition.

Thus did Durbin indulge the same comparison spouted in the same committee last week by Judge Merrick Garland, President Biden's attorney general nominee: Months of rampant violence by the radical left, exemplified by the siege on a federal courthouse in Portland, is mere criminal vandalism, whereas a few hours of violence by the radical right, carried out at the Capitol on Jan. 6, is domestic terrorism.

Some of us who live in blue cities got to experience literally months of pretty much daily left wing riots carried out by your co-travelers.

I'll sum up: The entire nation got to live through 2+ years of Team lib burning stuff down.
https://www.realclearinvestigations.com/articles/2...

The summer 2020 riots resulted in some 15 times more injured police officers, 30 times as many arrests, and estimated damages in dollar terms up to 1,300 times more costly than those of the Capitol riot. George Floyd rioters were found to have used more sophisticated and dangerous tactics than did the Capitol rioters, and in some cases weapons of greater lethality.
Authorities have pursued the largely Trump-supporting Capitol rioters with substantially more vigor than suspected wrongdoers in the earlier two cases. Many accused Capitol rioters, unlike accused participants in the other riots, have been held in pretrial detention for months ' with one defendant serving more time than the maximum sentence for the charge to which he pleaded guilty. Some allegedly endured solitary confinement and other mistreatment.
With authorities applying lenient prosecutorial standards in many major cities torn by the summer riots, the vast majority of charges last year were dismissed, as were charges in the Inauguration 2017 unrest. Charges have to date been dropped in only a single Capitol riot case.

Facts. Yup. They don't help your case out.

but in a civil or licensing context you can be required to consent to inspection as a condition of holding the license. - albaby

----------------

Very thought provoking. All of a sudden it occurs to me that many of the so called freedoms we think we have here in the good ol' USA exist only because government has not yet exercised its option to regulate them. Is there anything that prevents a governmental entity from passing any regulation that requires or prohibits an action and then claims a right to randomly inspect (aka search) to enforce compliance?

I know who many of these other posters are from the Fool, but I don't know you.

I never posted on the boards where you all interacted. I stayed away from that. But the boards where I had relationships and contributed to....health and nutrition, pandemic, women's health, taking care of parents....didn't transition successfully. And I know some people here....so here I am.

That doesn't seem to stop you from flinging mud around at random.

I'm not flinging mud, and it's not random. And it's not "ya-yas to the hardcore ones here." You and I hold highly conflicting views, and I find that you too often base them on "facts" that are manufactured to create believers.


I'd offer some kind of olive branch, but you've not given me any reason to.</o\i>

Try putting that the other way. You haven't given me the slightest hint that you'd actually be kindly disposed to an olive branch. Your response to whatever I say is inevitably a rude insult. And then you make it all MY fault.

Is there anything that prevents a governmental entity from passing any regulation that requires or prohibits an action and then claims a right to randomly inspect (aka search) to enforce compliance?

Yes. Politics.

Most of the protections of the U.S. Constitution, and especially state constitutions, are procedural. The genius of those documents is not that legislative or regulatory power is denied to the government. The state legislative power covers everything, for the most part - only the federal government is limited. But the exercise of that power is allocated in ways that mitigate against the chance that the government will do something that its citizens really, really hate.

That's not perfect, of course. Especially when it comes to actions taken by the majority against the minority. Which is why there are some broad areas that are indeed walled off from government action.

But for the most part, the protection against government doing things like you describe is the ballot box.

Dope1: https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/541379-whats-...


I give you facts, studies, and data and you give me an op-ed.

And the ANTIFA BOOGEYMAN!!!

As for Antifa. Here you go: A new database of nearly 900 politically motivated attacks and plots in the United States since 1994 includes just one attack staged by an anti-fascist that led to fatalities. In that case, the single person killed was the perpetrator.

Over the same time period, American white supremacists and other rightwing extremists have carried out attacks that left at least 329 victims dead, according to the database. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/27/us-r...


Dope1: Some of us who live in blue cities got to experience literally months of pretty much daily left wing riots carried out by your co-travelers.

Riots, ya' say. Ever heard of Umbrella Man? You know, the guy who instigated the rioting and looting in Minneapolis after George Floyd's death? The guy who spray painted "free sh!t for everyone zone" on the AutoZone that sparked a series of events that turned previously peaceful protests chaotic?

"This was the first fire that set off a string of fires and looting throughout the precinct and the rest of the city," Christensen wrote in the affidavit, according to reports. "Until the actions of the person your affiant has been calling 'Umbrella Man,' the protests had been relatively peaceful." That action led to roughly 500 businesses being damaged or looted, with nearly 70 of them burned to the ground.

So who was Umbrella Man?

He was a member of the Aryan Cowboy Brotherhood, a White supremacist prison and street gang, who specifically sought to inflame racial tensions. https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests...

And remember the republican outrage over a Minneapolis police station that was set on fire. ANTIFA! ANTIFA!

Nope, another rightwing extremist who later boasted of driving from Texas to Minneapolis to help set fire to the police precinct during the George Floyd protests.

US attorney Erica MacDonald said on Friday that she had charged Ivan Harrison Hunter, a 26-year-old Texas resident, with traveling across state lines to participate in a riot. The charges are the latest example of far-right extremists attempting to use violence to escalate national protests against police brutality into an uprising against the government, and even full civil war. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/23/texa...

So sure, you go ahead and post your op-eds and I'll keep posting facts, studies, and data.

And to amplify my point, since all the lefties won't read anything.
The DOJ maintains a firm double standard when it comes to choosing whom to prosecute. That's going to skew crime statistics.

Case 1. A man is at a protest with his son. A counter protestor hassles the son, causing the man to shove the protestor away.
Case 2. A man vandalizes a building, sprays hateful messages on it, assaults an employee who tries to stop him, then bashes the police cruiser and resists arrest.

Case 1 is a man named Mark Houck, who was protesting at an abortion clinic. The local police investigated and found nothing. The local prosecutor declined to press any charges. But the DOJ sent the FBI to arrest him at his home and prosecuted him, recommending a sentence of 11 years.

Fortunately the jury called BS on the charges and acquitted Mr. Houck.
https://www.wfmz.com/news/area/southeastern-pa/jur...

Case 2 is a transgender named Maeve Nota (I don't care what his pronouns are). Despite the obvious hate-crime nature of his attack on a Catholic Church (he was upset about the Dobbs ruling), his physical assault on an employee there and the subsequent damage to a police cruiser while in the act of resisting arrest, the DOJ declined to push for any jail time.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-doj-recomme...

Facts.

So I'm suuuuuuure all the things are counted fairly and accurately.

I give you facts, studies, and data and you give me an op-ed.

I gave a load of data also.
In typical You fashion, you ignored that. Par for the course; you never debate in good faith no matter your handle.

And it's hilarious you're trying to hand wave off the left's Sturmabteilung, but not surprising. Having seen these a$$holes in action up close and personal (and having helped thwart one of their riots, tee hee hee) it's amusing to no end watching you people deny they exist.

Case 1. A man is at a protest with his son. A counter protestor hassles the son, causing the man to shove the protestor away. Case 1 is a man named Mark Houck, who was protesting at an abortion clinic. The local police investigated and found nothing. The local prosecutor declined to press any charges. But the DOJ sent the FBI to arrest him at his home and prosecuted him, recommending a sentence of 11 years.

Fortunately the jury called BS on the charges and acquitted Mr. Houck.
https://www.wfmz.com/news/area/southeastern-pa/jur...

Facts.

So I'm suuuuuuure all the things are counted fairly and accurately.

Not quite.
If you want facts, I'd suggest you take a glance at:
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-new...

Houk didn't simply shove away a counter-protestor who had hassled his son. He twice assaulted an elderly volunteer who escorts patients into the abortion clinic.

=The Department of Justice charged Houk with two counts of violating the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances (FACE) Act. The DOJ accused Houck of twice assaulting the volunteer at the Planned Parenthood Elizabeth Blackwell Health Center.

According to the DOJ indictment obtained by The Daily Beast, the then-47-year-old Houck 'forcefully shoved B.L. to the ground' and then, in a second altercation the same day, 'verbally confronted B.L. and forcefully shoved B.L. to the ground.' Houck did this 'because B.L. was a volunteer escort at the reproductive health care clinic,' the indictment said. The second assault caused 'injuries to B.L. that required medical attention.'

In addition:
=The alleged assault was denounced by MAGA media, and was framed by Houck and his supporters as an exhibit of conservative persecution.

No coment on Case 2. I can't find any mention of it in an objective source.

I gave a load of data also.

No, you give a couple of anecdotes. That is not 'data'. Data is when you look at collections of anecdotes, like you saying 'cities are hell holes of violence' or whatever it was. (I'm on an iPad, hard to toggle between screens.)

Mike Pence just made similar claims, but as it turns out several cities in Indiana have higher murder rates than New York, per capita. 'Per Capita' is the only way to measure, obviously, because NY has 10,20,30 times the population of Indiana cities, so of course there will be more murders in toto in New York.

And, for that matter, if you look at gun deaths per capita it becomes clear that the southern states (highly conservative, some of the laxest gun safety laws) have far higher rates of gun deaths than northern, more liberal states. But you would rather tell us about there one kid who got shot when he went to school in Poughkeepsie than deal with the relevant statistical differences.

It's a common technique of argumentation, but that doesn't mean anyone here is fooled by it.

PS: 'Shouting down the transgender lady or guy, whoever' hardly compares with 'clearing the library of any book any conservative complains about', but you won't engage with that either. Both are wrong, but you only write about one of them. We're highly aware of your slanted take on that too, as well as most other issues, which is why you found yourself shouting to yourself instead of convincing anyone (who isn't already convinced) of your point of view.

No

Yes. You, like others, don't actually read the posts you respond to, then launch into diatribes that veer into side topics or just devolve into insults. To wit
We're highly aware of your slanted take on that

LOL@u. You people are in no position to accuse anyone of bias.

And double LOL if you think that you can be convinced of anything. It's the most biased among us who often claim to be the most open minded and tolerant when it reality it's the exact opposite. Tell me. How many of those "In this house, we believe..." signs do you have in your lawn? Lame-o virtual signaling is another symptom.

'LOL@u' Dope? 'And double LOL You people are', Dope? 'Lame-o virtual signaling", Dope?

Insult everybody, pad it with nonsense, dance in circles around your little bonfire chanting 'I owned the lefties, I owned the lefties.'

No doubt you got lonely at the discord board with nobody to spank your cyberbottom.

Sad life, you sitting on the bench over the dunk tank, Dope, getting dunked over and over.

Insult everybody, pad it with nonsense,

Sorry, but no.

Insult everybody, pad it with nonsense,

Sorry, but no.

Not sorry, and yes.

Not sorry

Yes, you are.

Dope1: Case 1. A man is at a protest...

Case 2 is a transgender...


Here, I have an even more egregious example.

Case 1: An astonishing cache of top secrets and classified documents steadily spilled into public view over the past week, disrupting U.S. foreign policy and aggravating America's allies. In that short time, the FBI identified the man, Jack Teixeira, arrested him, and began a search of his residence.

Case 2: Another man who stole hundreds of documents belonging to the United States -- some classified at the highest levels -- refused to return them, ignored a subpoena, had his attorney falsely claim all the documents had been returned, moved the documents between locations, left them unsecured, and over two years later Donald Trump still has not been arrested or indicted.

Case 2: Another man who stole hundreds of documents belonging to the United States -- some classified at the highest levels -- refused to return them, ignored a subpoena, had his attorney falsely claim all the documents had been returned, moved the documents between locations, left them unsecured, and decades later Joe Biden still has not been arrested or indicted.

Fixed that for you. Amazing how the rocks you guys fling from your glass house end up coming right back at you.
You lot also love to point out that righties never criticize our side.

Your turn. Please condemn Joe Biden for the things you condemn Trump over. And oh, yeah, Hillary! says hello. While you're at it, please tell us you're now all for Locking Her Up.

Don't let us down!

Case 2: Another man who stole hundreds of documents belonging to the United States -- some classified at the highest levels -- refused to return them, ignored a subpoena, had his attorney falsely claim all the documents had been returned, moved the documents between locations, left them unsecured, and decades later Joe Biden still has not been arrested or indicted.

Fixed that for you. Amazing how the rocks you guys fling from your glass house end up coming right back at you.
You lot also love to point out that righties never criticize our side.

Your turn. Please condemn Joe Biden for the things you condemn Trump over. And oh, yeah, Hillary! says hello. While you're at it, please tell us you're now all for Locking Her Up.

Don't let us down! - Dope

___________________

Another point worth remembering is that while it is common for presidents and even VP's to possess highly classified documents outside of SCIFs, it is not a privilege extended to Senators. Some of then documents Biden kept in his garage with the corvette (or was it his beach house?), were from his time in the Senate. So far, there is zero interest in how he came to possess those particular documents even though that is a different and more significant crime.

Case 2: Another man who stole hundreds of documents belonging to the United States -- some classified at the highest levels -- refused to return them, ignored a subpoena, had his attorney falsely claim all the documents had been returned, moved the documents between locations, left them unsecured, and decades later Joe Biden still has not been arrested or indicted.
******************************
Fixed that for you. Amazing how the rocks you guys fling from your glass house end up coming right back at you.

I'm afraid you did nothing to that except to make a false statement. I don't understand how you can believe what you've stated.

It's crystal clear from all of the reports over time that Biden possessed a minute minute fragment (about a dozen items) of the enormous numbers (more than 11,000) of documents that Trump took with him. More than 300 of Trump's documents were marked classified or top secret. Trump's possession was discovered when the National Archives realized they were missing documents that should have been sent over from the Trump administration, and they contacted Trump to request them. Trump did his best to hold onto them by delaying and lying, including having one of his lawyers sign a statement that they had all been returned......when huge numbers were still on his property. He moved them around between locations. And finally the FBI did a search to locate them. When Biden's people were closing up an old office of his, they found a handful of documents and immediately notified the authorities and handed them over. The consequent search uncovered a few more elsewhere. If any were classified isn't yet known. But the scope of the respective document numbers of Trump vs Biden and Trump's lies in attempting to hold onto his document trove vs Biden's immediate volunteered cooperation place them in totally different categories. And it's likely (although speculative at this point) that the nature and potential danger of their respective documents will also be in totally different categories. We know that some of Trump's document trove held highly classified top secret information that would be devastating to fall into the wrong hands.

Another point worth remembering is that while it is common for presidents and even VP's to possess highly classified documents outside of SCIFs, it is not a privilege extended to Senators. Some of then documents Biden kept in his garage with the corvette (or was it his beach house?), were from his time in the Senate. So far, there is zero interest in how he came to possess those particular documents even though that is a different and more significant crime.

Yeah, I'm not going to hold my breath that The Consistents (TM) over here will notice that bit. But hey, it's the right wingers who don't praise the other side!!!

Dope1: Case 2: Another man who stole hundreds of documents belonging to the United States -- some classified at the highest levels -- refused to return them, ignored a subpoena, had his attorney falsely claim all the documents had been returned, moved the documents between locations, left them unsecured, and decades later Joe Biden still has not been arrested or indicted.

Fixed that for you.

Congratulations, not a single word you wrote is correct (well, other than that Biden has not been arrested or indicted).

Biden did not steal hundreds of documents. The Justice Department took possession of six items and some of Biden's handwritten notes from his vice-presidential years to further review them. There's no way to know how many documents date to his Senate days (although Congress has now been briefed on the Biden, Trump, and Pence documents).

Funny, you conveniently neglected to include Pence.

Biden immediately arranged to have the documents that were discovered returned by his attorneys.

He was never subpoenaed.

His attorneys never made false claims on his behalf.

Documents were not moved.

The documents were locked away (although an argument could be made that they were not technically secured, at least not the ones in his locked garage).

You need to investigate the legal definition of intent and then apply that definition to the actions of Trump, Biden, Clinton and Pence.

As Comey explained as he was destroying her candidacy, they could not find the required 'intent' to indict Clinton.

And as the Trump administration clearly demonstrated, several individuals in his administration used private email to conduct official government business, including Trump's son-in-law, Jared Kushner, and daughter Ivanka Trump, both advisers to the president, former deputy national security adviser K.T. McFarland and former adviser Stephen K. Bannon, adviser Stephen Miller, former chief of staff Reince Priebus and former National Economic Council director Gary Cohn.

None of them will be indicted, either.

Again, the required 'intent' necessary to indict would be difficult to establish.

The fact that a cult still believes Trump is the second coming of Christ and are willing to overlook his criminal behavior makes me sad for this country.

Congratulations, you have it right and I'm way off in a lot it

Indeed. (The above is what you should have typed.)

Biden did not steal hundreds of documents. Yeah, not so much:

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/classified-documen...
Loads found in the garage securely stored next to the 'Vette. Great place for it!

Then there's the Penn Center:
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/joe-biden/fbi-sea...

I guess the only question is: Where DIDN'T Biden stash documents? Your point is ...obliterated.

As far you hiding behind Comey, when he said "No reasonable prosecutor...." people like you forget that wasn't his job to play the role of prosecutor. Whoops.

Stop projecting your feelings for proggie politics on to other people. Normals have lives; proggies believe in the Church of Progressivism and worship at its alter all day. How ironic for a supposed board of Atheists: you just replaced one God with another.

And just to finish it off:
The documents at the Wilmington home appeared to be related to Biden's time as vice president, Bauer said, as well as to his tenure in the Senate, and they were found after Biden's counsel offered full access to the premises.

Yup. Joe got right on with notifying the proper authorities about that, all right. And as pointed out upthread, he had no right to those documents as a Senator.

BBbbbbbbbbutt Mmmmmmike Ppppppence:

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/24/politics/pence-clas...

About a week after Attorney General Merrick Garland appointed a special counsel to investigate President Joe Biden's handling of classified documents, former Vice President Mike Pence asked an attorney to review four boxes of documents stored in his Indiana home, according to an attorney for Pence.

The lawyer discovered about a dozen classified documents in the boxes, which have since been turned over to the FBI, CNN first reported on Tuesday.

Pence did it right. Everyone else did it wrong, some more than others. The fact of the matter than folks don't want to acknowledge is that a case could be made for Trump having documents. No such cases exists for Hillary! or Biden.

<<I give you facts, studies, and data and you give me an op-ed. And the ANTIFA BOOGEYMAN!!!>>

You just summarized American politics beautifully!
Democrats think critically and make reasonable arguments based on facts, data and reality.
Republicans live in a right-wing echo chamber of opinions, poor news sources, fear and propaganda. (Why would anyone want to live like that?)

When a right-winger tries to make a fact based argument it's like he's standing in the outfield shouting,
'I've got it! I've got it!' And the ball beans him in the head. Every time.

Don't believe me? Just read this board.

Dope1: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/classified-documen...
Loads found in the garage securely stored next to the 'Vette. Great place for it!

Loads?

From your link: During the review, the lawyers discovered among personal and political papers a small number of additional Obama-Biden Administration records with classified markings.

'Loads' is not equal to 'a small number'.


Dope1: Then there's the Penn Center:
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/joe-biden/fbi-sea...

I guess the only question is: Where DIDN'T Biden stash documents?

Evidently, no where else. But we'll see what the special counsel turns up.


Dope1: Your point is ...obliterated.

Dope1 declares victory! But you failed to address my point: INTENT.

Here is what I wrote: You need to investigate the legal definition of intent and then apply that definition to the actions of Trump, Biden, Clinton and Pence.

As Comey explained as he was destroying her candidacy, they could not find the required 'intent' to indict Clinton.

And as the Trump administration clearly demonstrated, several individuals in his administration used private email to conduct official government business, including Trump's son-in-law, Jared Kushner, and daughter Ivanka Trump, both advisers to the president, former deputy national security adviser K.T. McFarland and former adviser Stephen K. Bannon, adviser Stephen Miller, former chief of staff Reince Priebus and former National Economic Council director Gary Cohn.

None of them will be indicted, either.

Again, the required 'intent' necessary to indict would be difficult to establish.

Try again.

Dope1: As far you hiding behind Comey, when he said "No reasonable prosecutor...." people like you forget that wasn't his job to play the role of prosecutor. Whoops.

Isn't this getting embarrassing for you?

To warrant a criminal charge, Mr. Comey said, there had to be evidence that Mrs. Clinton intentionally transmitted or willfully mishandled classified information. The F.B.I. found neither, and as a result, he said, 'our judgment is that no reasonable prosecutor would bring such a case.'

The Justice Department is highly likely to accept the F.B.I.'s guidance, which a law enforcement official said also cleared three top aides of Mrs. Clinton who were implicated in the case...


Dope1: ...proggies believe in the Church of Progressivism and worship at its alter all day. How ironic for a supposed board of Atheists...

More nonsense. I've repeatedly said that anyone who commits a crime should be prosecuted if there's evidence to support charges. And look who's talking: the man who worships at the feet of Mango Mussolini.


https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/06/us/politics/hil...

'Loads' is not equal to 'a small number'.

They didn't quantify it, so you're not allowed to dismiss it.

Evidently, no where else. But we'll see what the special counsel turns up.

Uh, huh. So at least you're capable of admitting to be wrong. In an oblique sort of way.

Progress!

But you failed to address my point: INTENT.

Because you don't have one. I posted ad nauseam about his over on the Fool. Allow me repost this
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1924#:~....

(a)Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both.

Maintaining a server in your closet constitutes plenty of intent. Comey invented some stuff out of thin air to avoid arresting Hillary! and offending the future funders of his book (and thus, his retirement plan).

And your quote about Comey is patently ridiculous: anyone who has had 5 minutes of training in that area knows you're not allowed to remove certain items from the SCIF. That's another point that gets memory-holed.

I've repeatedly said that anyone who commits a crime should be prosecuted if there's evidence to support charges

And yet you only opine in one direction, while accusing others of doing what you're already doing. There's a word for that.

Loads' is not equal to 'a small number'.
*******************************************
They didn't quantify it, so you're not allowed to dismiss it.

They did a pretty good job of quantifying. If you make the effort to look.

Trump:
Roughly 300 documents with classification markings ' including some at the top secret level ' have been recovered from Trump since he left office in January 2021.

In January 2022, the National Archives and Records Administration retrieved 15 boxes of documents, telling Justice Department officials they contained 'a lot' of classified material. In August, FBI agents took about 33 boxes and containers of 11,000 documents from Mar-a-Lago, including roughly 100 with classification markings found in a storage room and an office. And remember that Trump's stuff was all over the place, often not secured, moved from one place to another, often sitting in easily accessible areas, etc.

Biden:
The approximately 10 documents marked classified and discovered at the Penn Biden Center were discovered in a locked closet. A "small number" of documents were found in his garage storage space, and "a total of six pages of classified documents were found during a search at Biden's home."

So for Biden....who cooperated fully once the first items were inadevertently discovered....that's 16 plus the small number that were in the garage. And for Trump, it was thousands and thousands of documents that included over 300 that were classified, and he resisted and lied all the way along.

Dope1: They didn't quantify it, so you're not allowed to dismiss it.

Well, anyone with a lick of sense can see the difference.

                  TRUMP                      BIDEN                     PENCE

             33 boxes and containers     A small number in           Four boxes  
            totaling 11,000 documents,   a locked closet at          of papers,
             over 300 w/ classified     the Penn Biden Center;       the exact
            markings, some top secret   a second batch (6 pages)      quantity
                                        at his Wilmington home;     undetermined
                                        after a 13-hour search
                                        six additional items that 
                                        contained documents with 
                                        classified markings were
                                        discovered, including 
                                        some of his handwritten 
                                                notes

Easy, right? Trump removed over 11,000 documents and photos, Biden reportedly 3 dozen but let's say 100, and Pence, who knows, but you can fit quite a number of papers inside of four boxes, let's say less than 100.


Dope1: Because you don't have one. I posted ad nauseam about his over on the Fool. Allow me repost this... knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents...

You don't even read your own posts.

My point is right there in your U.S. Code quote: WITH THE INTENT.


Dope1: Maintaining a server in your closet constitutes plenty of intent.

No. As Clinton said, the primary reason she set up her own email was for "convenience"; government-issued Blackberry phones at the time were unable to access multiple email accounts.

When she became secretary of state, the controlling interpretation of the 1950 Federal Records Act was that officials using personal email accounts must ensure that official correspondence is turned over to the government. She maintained that her emails were archived because her emails went to, or were forwarded to, people with government accounts, so they were automatically archived. When she left office she provided NARA with her government emails.

Regardless of whether people believe her or disbelieve her, the FBI concluded that even if one were to conclude she mishandled documents (exactly what Trump, Biden, and Pence are being accused of today), no reasonable prosecutor would charge her. There was no INTENT on her part to do anything with the emails.

Had Trump acted in the same way as Biden and Pence have by cooperating with NARA and immediately returning the found documents, this would be a nothingburger. Instead, Trump refused to return the documents, lied about them, ignored a subpoena for them, and obstructed the investigation.

IOW, the 'crime' would have gotten him a slap on the wrist but the cover-up likely will get him indicted.

Dope1: And your quote about Comey is patently ridiculous: anyone who has had 5 minutes of training in that area knows you're not allowed to remove certain items from the SCIF. That's another point that gets memory-holed.

Clinton never removed a document from a SCIF. She was accused of having THREE documents that were classified at the time they were sent or received in her email. Every other classified document was 'up-classified' so redactions could be made to make them suitable for public disclosure.

The Justice IG report concluded: There was no evidence that the senders or former Secretary Clinton believed or were aware at the time that the emails contained classified information,' the Justice IG report said. 'The emails in question were sent to other government officials in furtherance of the senders' official duties. There was no evidence that the senders or former Secretary Clinton intended that classified information be sent to unauthorized recipients, or that they intentionally sought to store classified information on unauthorized systems.

Under oath at a congressional hearing, Comey admitted that markings -- a (C) -- were contained in the body of the text and, contrary to standard practice, there was no header at the top alerting someone that this was classified material. He told lawmakers that without a header, it was 'a reasonable inference' that this material was not classified.

Comey admitted, after ruining her campaign, that Clinton actually had NO CLASSFIED DOCUMENTS ON HER EMAIL SERVER (link below).


Dope1: And yet you only opine in one direction, while accusing others of doing what you're already doing.

No. When I see nonsense and errors, I correct them with facts and the truth.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/09/08...

Dope1: And yet you only opine in one direction, while accusing others of doing what you're already doing.

No. When I see nonsense and errors, I correct them with facts and the truth.


But very very sadly, you are preaching to the choir. You may be enabling us to refine our awareness of the reality. But with far too few exceptions, your facts don't spark awareness among those who desperately need it.

You don't even read your own posts.

I read them, you misinterpret them, evidently.
WITH THE INTENT.
Uh, huh. Covered that.

Sheesh.

No. As Clinton said, the primary reason she set up her own email was for "convenience"; government-issued Blackberry phones at the time were unable to access multiple email accounts.

You do realize - actually, it's obvious you don't - that using a private email to do official government business is a no-no, right? And on top of that, she was blithely emailing classified info from her non-government email account on her nonsecured server. Classified info that to get on her server in the first place had to be removed from a State Department SCIF.

When she left office she provided NARA with her government emails.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/hillary-clinton-jo...
Right. Except for the 'with a cloth' thing.
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/hillary-clin...
'After seeking and receiving a two week extension from the Committee, Secretary Clinton failed to provide a single new document to the subpoena issued by the Committee and refused to provide her private server to the Inspector General for the State Department or any other independent arbiter for analysis,' Representative Trey Gowdy (R., S.C.), the chairman of the select committee investigating the attacks, announced Friday evening.

'We learned today, from her attorney, Secretary Clinton unilaterally decided to wipe her server clean and permanently delete all emails from her personal server,' he continued. 'While it is not clear precisely when Secretary Clinton decided to permanently delete all emails from her server, it appears she made the decision after October 28, 2014, when the Department of State for the first time asked the Secretary to return her public record to the Department.'

With a cloth.

Clinton never removed a document from a SCIF.
Right. Which she got someone else to do the deed. So she knew this stuff shouldn't have been around in the first place. This by the way makes it a conspiracy, as if what you're saying is correct she got someone else to commit a crime.

No. When I see nonsense and errors, I correct them with facts and the truth.

Uh, no. You're the civilian version of Colonel Flagg. Ask Mr. Knight about Mr. Flagg and the truth.

Another AR-15.

The same gun more than 30 law enforcement officers were afraid to confront in Uvalde that left 19 children dead.

The same gun that's been the weapon of choice in many of the most horrific mass shootings in recent memory,
including the Covenant school shooting in Nashville just two weeks ago.

The same gun brandished by Republican dimwits like Marjorie Taylor Greene and Lauren Boebert.

The same gun worn as a pin on the lapels of disgusting, pro-death GOP lawmakers.

If 30 armed officers wearing full tactical gear with ballistic shields are too afraid to confront a single gunman with an AR-15, maybe they should not be in the hands of civilians?

We know the answer. It's the guns.

Guns are the leading cause of death for American children...

If only republicans actually cared about children more than guns.

If only republicans actually cared about children more than guns.

------------------

If only democrats actually cared about eliminating criminals and treating mental illness.

bighairymike: If only democrats actually cared about eliminating criminals and treating mental illness.

Puhleeze.

Last September when the House passed legislation funding for schools to hire more mental health experts and grow their mental health services, especially schools in areas with high need, and to provide mental health protections to adults with private health insurance and children and staff in Head Start programs, every republican in the House voted "no" except for one. Fitzpatrick of Pennsylvania cast the sole Republican "yes" vote.

205 House republicans voted against expanding mental healthcare.

220 House democrats voted in favor of expanding mental healthcare.

And "eliminating" criminals?

Huh?

And "eliminating" criminals?

Huh

---------------

As if criminals are not the ones committing homicides.

bighairymike: As if criminals are not the ones committing homicides.

It's your use of the word "eliminating" that I was emphasizing. And don't say "lock 'em up" because America already has 2 million people in the nation's prisons and jails -- a 500% increase over the last 40 years.

Top 10 Countries with the most people in prison...

1. United States ' 2,068,800

2. China ' 1,690,000

3. Brazil ' 811,707

4. India ' 478,600

5. Russia ' 471,490

6. Thailand ' 309,282

7. Turkey ' 291,198

8. Indonesia ' 266,259

9. Mexico ' 220,866

10. Iran ' 189,000

Don't address culture.

Working well so far.

It's your use of the word "eliminating" that I was emphasizing. And don't say "lock 'em up" because America already has 2 million people in the nation's prisons and jails -- a 500% increase over the last 40 years.

=======================

Eliminating criminals 100% is not possible but we can do better, lots better, than we are doing now. Incarcerating repeat felons and keeping them off the street would go a long way. Diversion programs for minor crimes and first time offenders to open up prison space for serious felons seems obvious. Various police chiefs talk a lot about the the vast number of crimes being committed by repeat offenders. Bail reforms were called for but have been poorly implemented. Allowing vast tent cities and the petty crime that goes with it is misguided and only incubates more criminals and repeat criminal behavior.

If only democrats actually cared about eliminating criminals and treating mental illness.


They don't. deomcrat policies are designed to reward criminals and punish regular citizens.

It's all about creating dependence on a bigger and bigger government.

And don't say "lock 'em up" because America already has 2 million people in the nation's prisons and jails -- a 500% increase over the last 40 years.

I hear this talking point in leftist activist circles all the time and I wonder...

So what?

It sounds like we need to lock even more people up. Why are you afraid of accountability?

Don't address culture.

Working well so far.

Nope.
Nor the family structure, or personal agency, any of it.

Living in Ground Zero of a single party democrat area is enlightening. You see how shockingly incompetent they are at virtually everything they touch and how callous they are in not owning up to a single mistake.

bighairymike: Allowing vast tent cities and the petty crime that goes with it is misguided and only incubates more criminals and repeat criminal behavior.

The few available studies indicate the opposite: homeless people and people in "vast tent cities" are more likely to be victims of crime.

The intersection of substance use, homelessness and theft might cause people to blame large encampments for Vancouver's increased property crime. Research in Seattle, however, suggests there's no correlation between camp size and reported property crime.

I notice you didn't mention substance abuse.

Charles Lanfear is a quantitative sociologist who has built a model to track changes in property crime as homeless camps grow.

"On average, an increase in the number of tents and structures in an area is not associated with any increases in property crime ' very close to zero," Lanfear says.

Contrary to what Fox News tells its viewers every single day, the data show no recent increase in the U.S. violent crime rate. But if all you watch is Fox News, every day looks like a crime wave.

Unless we're talking about mass shootings.

Then, meh.


https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/10/31....

https://www.columbian.com/news/2023/apr/16/is-home...

The few available studies indicate the opposite: homeless people and people in "vast tent cities" are more likely to be victims of crime.

You mean the ones that squat, camp, dump and use drugs illegally? I hate to break it to you, but no.

And before you attempt yet another mendacious distraction, those people deserve help and equal protection under the law. What they don't need is what liberalism offers them:

Endless second through50th chances.
No accountability.
Free access to all the dangerous drugs they want.

"Contrary to what Fox News tells its viewers every single day, "

================

Not tell, but "shows" its viewers. Videos of actual crime, actual interviews with real crime victims, business owners begging for help, etc. Did you not "see" coverage of Nordstrom, Whole Foods, et al closing their stores? Why is that?

Same with the border. Mayorka, "The border is secure" vs what damn near everyone with eyes can see differently. You don't see it because you don't look.

"On average, an increase in the number of tents and structures in an area is not associated with any increases in property crime ' very close to zero," Lanfear says.


ROTFLMAO!!!

Not tell, but "shows" its viewers. Videos of actual crime, actual interviews with real crime victims, business owners begging for help, etc. Did you not "see" coverage of Nordstrom, Whole Foods, et al closing their stores? Why is that?

Same with the border. Mayorka, "The border is secure" vs what damn near everyone with eyes can see differently. You don't see it because you don't look.

They don't do facts. They do narratives.
I went back and looked at his again post after I read yours and saw the ABSURD claim that drug encampments (that's what they are after all) don't increase property crime.

the data show....

Sitting here with a big smile on my face! Dear commonsense. Someone who actually knows that "data" is a plural noun. ("Datum" is the singular.) These days, even the great majority of people who deal with data in their professional lives write papers about what "our data shows." And I silently cringe a tad every time I read that.

sheila727: Sitting here with a big smile on my face! Dear commonsense. Someone who actually knows that "data" is a plural noun. ("Datum" is the singular.)

Ah, yes, I do know and generally agree with you (having been a Creative Director at Simon & Schuster for several years). I will admit not to adhering to the traditional "plural" rule quite as much today, though, after AP changed its mind and now states that data typically takes singular verbs and pronouns when writing for general audiences. Boo. While the traditionalist in me wants to see the plural usage, the pragmatist in me is more forgiving.

In short, now the entire situation is cringeworthy for me for one reason or the other.

And "eliminating" criminals?

Huh?

Like any good fascist, Mike favors the Filipino solution.

Well-Regulated Militia Opens Fire In Hollywood Beach, Florida; The nine victims included six adults and three children...
Useless Thoughts And Prayers Rushed To The Scene.

If you think a can of beer or a rainbow display at a department store is a greater threat to society than unregulated gun ownership, congratulations you are an idiot.

Guns are the leading cause of death for American children.

We know the answer. It's the guns.

Well-Regulated Militia Opens Fire In Hollywood Beach, Florida;

Congress codified it into organized militia and unorganized militia. The organized militia is the National Guard, the unorganized militia is essentially the pool of able bodied men that both Fed and state can enlist and draft from. So I phrase it "unorganized militia member has multiple negligent discharge fatalities". :)

Well-Regulated Militia Opens Fire In Richmond. Useless Thoughts And Prayers Rushed To The Scene.

This is the 279th mass shooting in America this year, and it's only June 6.

Guns have killed more than 18,000 Americans this year.

If you think a drag show, a can of Bud Lite or a rainbow display at a department store is a greater threat to children or society than unregulated gun ownership, congratulations you are an idiot.

Guns are the leading cause of death for American children.

We know the answer. It's the guns.

We know the answer. It's the guns. - vsg</I/

-----------------------

FIFY

We know the answer. It's the criminals and crazy people with guns.

In other news, 100 Million+ law abiding gun owners have not shot anybody this week, this year, or ever for that matter,

bighairymike: It's the criminals and crazy people with guns.


Since this thread is about mass shootings, this has been studied and been proven FALSE.

Approximately 5% of mass shootings are related to severe mental illness. A slightly larger percentage of mass shooters have suffered from a psychiatric or neurological illness like depression at some time but their conditions are incidental to the shootings.

There's actually a stronger correlation between domestic violence and mass shootings.

But mostly it's the guns.



https://www.columbiapsychiatry.org/news/mass-shoot...

https://efsgv.org/press/study-two-thirds-of-mass-s...

It's the criminals and crazy people with guns.

You're making progress BHM.

"It's the .... guns" are key words in the correct order your sentence.

100 Million+ law abiding gun owners have not shot anybody this week

That sentence, however, ignores the irresponsibility of the thousands of "law-abiding gun owners" who do not adequately regulate their weapons and ammunition.

"Stolen guns, untraceable weapons and other deadly devices are becoming more prevalent in U.S. gun crimes, new federal data shows.

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives released an expansive federal report, the first of its kind in 20 years, on guns used in crimes, providing the public with more detail about stolen firearms and gun trafficking."

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/national-firearms-com...

Well-Regulated Militia Opens Fire In Florida Amid Dispute Over Jet Ski Use;
7-Year-Old Killed, Grandfather Shot.

Useless Thoughts And Prayers Rushed To The Scene.

Guns are the leading cause of death for American children.

Guns have killed more than 18,000 Americans this year.

We know the answer. It's the guns.

Every other country figured it out.

Looking at Gun deaths per capita, it becomes clear that the southern states (highly conservative, some of the laxest gun safety laws) have far higher rates of gun deaths than northern, more liberal states.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/07...

I look at the Firearm Murder Rate because Gun Deaths includes suicides, which I consider a personal choice, but still look at it:

Where the Firearm Murder Rate is Highest
Per 10k, 2010-2020 Newsweek

DC 14.6
Louisiana 8.9
Missouri 6.4
South Carolina 5.8
Maryland 5.4
Tennessee 5.0
Arkansas 4.7
Delaware 4.5
Mississippi 4.4
Michigan 4.4
Illinois 4.3
Georgia 4.2
Oklahoma 3.8
Nevada 3.8
Alaska 3.7
North Carolina 3.7
Pennsylvania 3.6
Indiana 3.6
Kentucky 3.5
Virginia 3.4

https://www.newsweek.com/are-gun-deaths-higher-dem...

Well-Regulated Militia Opens Fire in Florida, 2 officers are in critical condition.

Useless Thoughts And Prayers Rushed To The Scene.

Guns have killed more than 20,000 Americans this year.

If you think a drag show or a book about Rosa Parks is a greater threat to children or society than unregulated gun ownership, congratulations you are an idiot.

Guns are the leading cause of death for American children.

We know the answer.

It's the guns.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/05/us/orlando-police-o...

Guns have killed more than 20,000 Americans this year. - vsg

-----------------

DGU's have saved more than that plus they have saved countless rapes, assaults, and burglaries too.

DGU's have saved more than that plus they have saved countless rapes, assaults, and burglaries too.

The data do not support that position, though I won't rehash that discussion you had with albaby a few months ago. He already presented the data then, and sans new data, your statement can't be taken as fact.

The data do not support that position, though I won't rehash that discussion you had with albaby a few months ago. He already presented the data then, and sans new data, your statement can't be taken as fact.

Oooh, you one smooth talker.

Can you edit that, pretending you are obligated to respond AND you must pay $10 per word (no imaginary run-on words, either ;-)

I like engaging with BHM. He's a reasonable guy with different opinions. I have no illusion that I'm going to change his mind on this issue. I was just reminding him that his claim was soundly refuted in a discussion with albaby (among others) a few months ago.

For me, the most interesting thing Albaby pointed out in the original discussion was that since the DGU's are self reported, many of them are in fact crimes themselves.

Guns have killed more than 20,000 Americans this year. - vsg

-----------------

BHM: DGU's have saved more than that plus they have saved countless rapes, assaults, and burglaries too.

Mike, that's preposterous. Using those same statistical techniques 1 million Americans have met aliens.

Well-Regulated Militia Opens Fire, A 66-year-old Mom was shot dead for displaying a Pride flag outside her store.

Useless Thoughts And Prayers Rushed To The Scene.

Guns have killed more than 21,000 Americans this year.

If you think a drag show or a book about Rosa Parks is a greater threat to children or society than unregulated gun ownership, congratulations you are an idiot.

Guns are the leading cause of death for American children.

We know the answer.

It's the guns.

Guns have killed more than 21,000 Americans this year.
.
.
.

We know the answer.

It's the guns. - vsg

==================================

In 2021, there were over 42,000 killed in automobile crashes.

We know the answer.

It's the cars.

Should be easier to eliminate since there is no constitutional right to own a vehicle.

<<In 2021, there were over 42,000 killed in automobile crashes. We know the answer. It's the cars.
Should be easier to eliminate since there is no constitutional right to own a vehicle.>> ~Hairy

Sounds good, let's legislate guns just like we legislate motor vehicles...

Learners permit and a formal test required for a license. Just as a nine-year old isn't allowed to drive a car, so they shouldn't be allowed to fire a gun. Hunting is no exception. Kids can't drive a car or truck for any purpose and nor should they be shooting a firearm.

Require renewal of the license every 2-3 years. I have to renew my driver's license, why not renew a license to fire a gun?

Require a different license for different classes of weapons. A driver of an 18 wheeler requires a different license. Handling a vehicle of that size with air brakes is very different from driving an automatic, 6 cylinder car. If you want to purchase a semi-automatic weapon, it should require a different license.

Registrations. Cars have to be registered, so all guns should be too.

Require gun insurance. Cars need insurance, so that same standard should apply to firearms. The insurance money can be used to pay hospital bills (just like car insurance) when you inadvertently injure someone with your weapon.

Safety testing. I have to get my car inspected every year, so why not bring the gun in for inspection? Failure to present the gun without proof of legal sale would imply illegal sale or theft and impart significant penalties.

Tax ammunition. Heavily. Gasoline is taxed. Heavily. However, ammunition is relatively cheap. How about a steep tax on ammunition that exponentially increases with the size of the magazine. The tax money can go for education about gun safety or to pay medical expenses for victims injured by idiotic gun owners.

Prevent online sales of ammunition. Since you can't buy gasoline online for home delivery, you shouldn't be able to buy ammunition online.

Require trigger locks. Cars have locks to prevent theft and protect children from climbing in and starting the car. No one argues, 'Cars shouldn't have a key for the ignition in case you are being chased so you can make a quick getaway.' If you can take time to start your car, you can take time to start your gun. The news is rife with stories of teenagers or young children either accidentally or intentionally killing with a gun from the home.

We can learn a lot by comparing guns to cars.

So please, yes, let's start comparing guns to cars!

Just as a nine-year old isn't allowed to drive a car, so they shouldn't be allowed to fire a gun. Hunting is no exception. Kids can't drive a car or truck for any purpose and nor should they be shooting a firearm.

While comparing the regulatory scheme governing cars and guns is an interesting exercise, I suppose it's important to keep in mind that most of what you've written is only true for cars when they are being operated on public roads. On private property, very few of these requirements apply.

These thing vary from state to state, but as a general matter you are not required to have a license to operate a motor vehicle on private property. Generally, cars can be driven by nine-year-olds - just not on public roads. The same is generally true of the different vehicle classes and license types and motor vehicle registration - neither CDL's nor license plates are required if you're keeping your car on private property and not on public roads.

Which is one reason why I've seen this comparison sometimes used by gun owners to argue against the basket of "common sense gun regulations." Car ownership and use is virtually unrestricted when conducted on private property. There's no licensing, background check, inspection, registry, or insurance requirements if you purchase a car for use on your own property. A similar regime for guns would involve loosening many regulations (though increasing some others).

Albaby

Sounds good, let's legislate guns just like we legislate motor vehicles...

Learners permit and a formal test required....

Require renewal of the license every 2-3 years....

Require a different license for different classes of weapons....


Registrations...all guns....

Require gun insurance....

Safety testing....

Tax ammunition. Heavily.....

Prevent online sales of ammunition....

Require trigger locks....

We can learn a lot by comparing guns to cars.

So please, yes, let's start comparing guns to cars!

----------------------

The ironic thing is, the gun grabbers have proposed all of those things... and more.

The ironic thing is, the gun grabbers have proposed all of those things... and more.

And I'm in the "How about...no?" category for every one of their ideas.

The reason is simple. The left hates the fact that we have a 2nd Amendment, hates the fact that regular Americans can own firearms and hates the fact there's very little they can do about it. The faux outrage over mass shootings is performance art: If they really gave a rip about the topic they institute a sweeping series of anti-gang laws and enforcement mechanisms to dry up the illegal supply of stolen weapons and crack down on the behavior that generates the most mass shootings, i.e. gang activity.

Then they'd take a good long look at the state of mental health in this country and attempt to address it.

But since neither things are on the table - much less discussed at all - that's how you know it's an act.

<<Car ownership and use is virtually unrestricted when conducted on private property. There's no licensing, background check,
inspection, registry, or insurance requirements if you purchase a car for use on your own property.
A similar regime for guns would involve loosening many regulations (though increasing some others).>> ~Albaby

Interesting stuff Albaby. Thanks.
I would just mention that Laura Ann Carleton, was murdered in front of her store (for flying a rainbow flag) not on the gun owners private property.
None of the shootings I've mentioned in my posts have been conducted on the gun owners private property.
They all involve gun owners bringing the guns and death out into the world. (Taking the car out onto the highway.)

What about an individuals unalienable right not to be murdered? Shouldn't that carry some weight? (Most developed countries believe so.)

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,
that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness...
Laura Ann Carleton had these rights taken from her.

None of the shootings I've mentioned in my posts have been conducted on the gun owners private property. - vsg

==============================

Well you did post this, #5238

"Guns have killed more than 21,000 Americans this year." - vsg

Certainly many of these 21,000 occurred on private property and most likely a good number of these were DGU's.

What about an individuals unalienable right not to be murdered? Shouldn't that carry some weight? (Most developed countries believe so.)

Of course it should carry some weight. I'm just pointing out that the car analogy isn't quite as clearly supportive of the specific gun regulations that advocate sometimes believe it is. And after all, it's also bad when people are killed in car crashes, whether we characterize that as an "inalienable right" or not. The point rather is that firearms and automobiles are very different from each other, and the regulatory scheme we have adopted for automobiles doesn't really map well onto what a firearm regulatory system would look like (wholly unrestricted private ownership, heavy regulation on public streets).

Right-wing terrorist opens fire at a Dollar General store in Florida, killing three people before taking his own life.
He donned a tactical vest and was armed with a Glock pistol and an AR-15. Photos of the weapons showed swastikas painted on the rifle.

"The hate that motivated the shooter's killing spree adds an additional layer of heartbreak.
I am sickened by this cowardly shooter's personal ideology of hate." ~Jacksonville Sheriff T.K. Waters said at a press conference.

There have been more than 420 mass shootings in 2023 so far in America.

Guns have killed more than 25,000 Americans.

If you think "saying gay" or reading a book about Rosa Parks is a greater threat to children or society than unregulated gun ownership,
congratulations you are an idiot.

Guns are the leading cause of death for American children.

Jacksonville was not alone in coping with the aftermath of a mass shooting on Saturday. In Boston, seven people were shot at a parade;
in Oklahoma, five people were shot Friday night at a high school football game, and in Chicago, two people were shot at a White Sox game.

We don't have to live this way. We know the answer. It's the guns. Every other country figured it out.

If only guns were as well-regulated as Women's uteruses.

If you think "saying gay" or reading a book about Rosa Parks is a greater threat to children or society than unregulated gun ownership, = vsg

-------------------

You appear to be unaware that guns are highly regulated. Crazy on the other hand is not regulated.

You appear to be unaware that guns are highly regulated

"Highly" is a subjective adverb.

Guns and firearms regulations are inadequate.

Gun regulations can be modified to reduce theft, sales and possession loopholes, to identify just a few of the known problems.

Sporting clays next month, Imma win a turkey for sure.

BhM: You appear to be unaware that guns are highly regulated.

Nix on that. Countries where guns are highly regulated:

Singapore
China
Japan
Australia
UK
Germany

Well-Regulated Militia Opens Fire in Pennsylvania, 2 dead. Useless Thoughts And Prayers Rushed To The Scene.

(Individuals in Pennsylvania are permitted to open carry firearms without a permit as long as the firearm is in plain view, what could go wrong?)

Reality check...

Americans are 26x more likely to be shot and killed than citizens of other high-income countries.

Everyday 327 people are shot in the United States. Of those, on average, 117 will die.

Everyday 23 children are shot in the United States.

As of 2022, the United States has 121 Firearms per 100 residents. Making it the only country on the planet with more civilian-owned firearms than people.

Guns are the leading cause of death for American children. The leading cause. If you vote republican you share in the blame.

Firearms accounted for nearly 19% of childhood deaths according to the CDC. Nearly 3,600 children died in gun-related incidents that year.
That’s about five children lost for every 100,000 children in the United States. In no other comparable country are firearms within the top four
causes of mortality among children.

Four sitting presidents have been killed: Abraham Lincoln, James A. Garfield, William McKinley, and John F. Kennedy.
Additionally, three presidents have been injured in attempted assassinations: Ronald Reagan, Theodore Roosevelt, and Donald Trump. In all of these cases, the attacker's weapon was a gun.

We know the answer. It's the guns.
If only we could stop it, like every other country in the world already has.

Guns are the leading cause of death for American children. The leading cause. - vsg

Wrogg. Criminals and crazy people are the leading cause.

Also, without an ability to defend ones self and family, there would be millions of successful crimes completed that presently are not successful due to defensive gun use. If you think guns are icky, that is fine, just don't own one and bask in the safety knowing that when seconds count, the police can sometime be there in a few minutes but usually a little longer.

Wrogg. Criminals and crazy people are the leading cause. ... of death for American children.

Bzzzt. Wrong. You get one more try to get it right. Can you do it?

"We know the answer. It's the guns.
If only we could stop it, like every other country in the world already has.

The real problem is white on white violence. It's clearly a cultural issue. Those people just like to kill one another.

"Wrogg. Criminals and crazy people are the leading cause. ... of death for American children."

News Flash: Every country has criminals and mental illness.

If only guns were as well-regulated as Women's uteruses.

If you think guns are icky, that is fine, just don't own one and bask in the safety knowing that when seconds count, the police can sometime be there in a few minutes but usually a little longer.

Get real. Having guns all around accomplishes nothing if a determined shooter has you in the sights.

Police were there with every kind of assault weapon they are issued.

Lotta good it did the suckers and losers who took bullets meant for the orange rapist.

"Criminals and crazy people WITH GUNS are the leading cause.

Ammosexuals gonna be ammosexual.

Rumor has it the shooter saw Sound of Freedom last year, then recently saw the Katie Johnson news story and her video's testimony. He became convinced Trump was a major pedophile and God ordered him to act!

God denies all responsibility for the shooting and the poor aim.... sez he and his son were together watching the Tigers beating the Dodgers.

Criminals and crazy people are the leading cause.

Also, without an ability to defend ones self and family, there would be millions of successful crimes completed that presently are not successful due to defensive gun use.

The site was reconnoitered by security experts. Not sure of the numbers, but the site was protected by armed police, armed Secret Service personal, and armed expert military snipers (which I assume were positioned in elevated positions). And I bet dollars to donuts there were other active security personnel that we are unaware of. They were all focused on the safety of one person.

And yet a 20 year old white male carrying a long rifle was able to get on an open roof a couple of hundred feet from the stage and kill one person, seriously injure two other people, and come within an inch or two of seriously injuring or killing a presidential candidate.

I agree that criminals and crazy people are responsible.

It’s time we voted them out of office.

Lotta good it did the suckers and losers who took bullets meant for the orange rapist.

Amen.

Trump stated this morning that "It was God alone who prevented the unthinkable from happening." Which begs the question: what did God have against Corey Comperatore, former firefighter who was killed while diving on top of his family to protect them? His family has an awful, awful lot to think about this morning.

Yet more evidence that all Trump cares about is himself. Character matters.

Trump stated this morning that "It was God alone who prevented the unthinkable from happening." Which begs the question: what did God have against Corey Comperatore, former firefighter who was killed while diving on top of his family to protect them? His family has an awful, awful lot to think about this morning.

Yet more evidence that all Trump cares about is himself. Character matters.

If Trump is really the beneficent and selfless man he claims to be, he should donate/give a million dollars to anyone who was injured in this attack. Will he?

God issued a press release last night:

"..... let me be clear: I have an alibi! I was at home, with Jesus, in the loo. I ain’t going down for this!!!

Seriously, I had nothing to do with this. I strongly oppose the use of violence in almost every instance. The only exceptions being the Civil War, World War II, and the Star Wars Trilogy. I was the one who wrote ‘THOU SHALT NOT KILL’ almost 4,000 years ago. I was against killing before it was cool.


Using violence to attain power is the essence of fascism, which I vehemently oppose. I would also like to make it clear today that I did not ‘protect Trump’ as Ryan Fournier on Twitter said. Again, I had nothing to do with this. I was at home, on the toilet, reading Substack. To suggest that I ‘protected Trump’ is just asinine… because why did I let any of it happen in the first place, then?

The coming weeks will be hard. Trump and the Republicans will milk this for all it’s worth. They are already blaming Biden and ‘the left,’ who also had nothing to do with this. In some respects, given how much hatred he has spewed over the years, it’s shocking something like this didn’t happen much sooner.

Anyway, I’m glad he’s okay. He needs to be defeated at the ballot box, not made into a martyr. And once he is defeated, perhaps common sense gun control can finally be enacted, and shootings can be eliminated from American life. Project 2025 wants to remove restrictions on gun control; we cannot let that happen.

Again, I just want to reiterate that I had nothing to do with this. And neither did you. Don’t let anyone try to pin any part of this insanity on you, okay? You’re a good person."

>>God issued a press release last night: - sano<<

"..... let me be clear: I have an alibi! I was at home, with Jesus, in the loo. I ain’t going down for this!!! ....

-------------------

LOL. Good stuff sano. I loves me some good snark.

Get real. Having guns all around accomplishes nothing if a determined shooter has you in the sights.

Police were there with every kind of assault weapon they are issued.

Maybe we can finally put the “good guy with a gun” myth to bed with this incident.

Multiple good guys with multiple guns actively looking for a bad guy, and the best they could do is take out the bad guy only after he had hit 4 people, killing one.

—Peter

If Trump is really the beneficent and selfless man he claims to be, he should donate/give a million dollars to anyone who was injured in this attack. Will he?

If it is somebody else's money? Sure he will.

Maybe we can finally put the “good guy with a gun” myth to bed with this incident. - ete

------------------

Yikes, the lens you guys filter through flips everything upside down

Here, the criminal, Thomas Crooks, was IN FACT taken out by a good guy (two of them as I understand it) with a gun.

You suffer from the false belief that the police can prevent all crime.

Here, the criminal, Thomas Crooks, was IN FACT taken out by a good guy (two of them as I understand it) with a gun.

Yes. That’s exactly what I said.

The point is that they did not, they could not, prevent the crime. The best they could do is perhaps lessen the crime, limiting the number of shots he could get off before he joined one of his victims at the pearly gates.

Now put the gun in the hands of a barely trained civilian “good guy” and how many bystanders is that good guy going to take out while trying to get the bad guy.

Guns in the hands of untrained civilians offer little protection to themselves or the general public.

—Peter

You suffer from the false belief that the police can prevent all crime.

You suffer from the delusion that the current state of gun control makes for a safer world.

The casualties at the rapist's rally prove that all the guns in attendance are no more effective than thoughts and prayers at eliminating casualties.

There will be more bump stock attacks on assemblies of people because of the ammosexual lobby and its supporters.

Those slaughters rest squarely on the shoulders of those who oppose sensible firearms regulations.

"Guns in the hands of untrained civilians offer little protection to themselves or the general public."

Heck, even in the hands of LEOs rounds end up hitting what they should not hit.

" What Happens After the Police Shoot Innocent Bystanders?
When the wrong person catches a bullet from a government-issued gun it’s often assumed that such collateral damage is unavoidable."

https://www.denverpost.com/2022/07/20/bystanders-s...

Those slaughters rest squarely on the shoulders of those who oppose sensible firearms regulations. - sano

---------------

Ahhh, the ephemeral and satisfyingly vague "sensible". Same category as the if the rich would only pay their fair share.

"sensible" "fair share" Both unattainable moving goalposts......

Ahhh, the ephemeral and satisfyingly vague "sensible". Same category as the if the rich would only pay their fair share.

And in this case mouthed by one of the people who promulgate the kind of rhetoric that fuels this stuff.

Yeah. He can have a roll of duct tape also.

If only the MAGA crowd cared as much about an entire classroom of innocent children being murdered as they do about a minor flesh wound to an eighth of an inch of the ear of a lying rapist.

Everyday 23 children are shot in the United States. Every single day.

Guns are the leading cause of death for American children.

If you vote republican you share in the blame. End of story.

"You suffer from the false belief that the police can prevent all crime."

Why do nutter a-holes have such a hard time actually verbalizing their opponent's positions?

People like you who don't understand basic statistics are a reason Americans get killed in far greater numbers than anywhere else in the first world. Your stupidity is literally killing Americans.

Guns are the leading cause of death for American children. The leading cause. - vsg

Wrogg. Criminals and crazy people are the leading cause.

Well, since Mike never corrected his mistake and just segued into another talking point, someone has to do it. Unintentional/accidental gun deaths are the leading cause of death for American children. Criminals and crazy people are not the cause, it’s negligence, carelessness, and stupidity on the part of parents/guardians. A two-year-old can pull the trigger. Kids are aware of your guns and are curious and can kill themselves or someone else. They can find your guns.

If only the MAGA crowd cared as much about entire classrooms full of innocent children being murdered as much as they care about a minor flesh wound to an eighth of an inch of the ear of a lying rapist.

Are you Pro-life?

Everyday 23 children are shot in the United States. Guns are the leading cause of death for American children.

If only guns were as well-regulated as Women's uteruses.

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