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Stocks A to Z / Stocks B / Berkshire Hathaway (BRK.A)
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Author: mdtls   😊 😞
Number: of 598 
Subject: Jim's 'annuitization'
Date: 09/18/2023 2:30 PM
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Would someone be kind enough to point me to this thread...?

Appreciated.

m
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Author: mungofitch 🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝 BRONZE
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Subject: Re: Jim's 'annuitization'
Date: 09/18/2023 3:34 PM
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There have been quite a few on that general subject.

Do you mean the subject "If for some reason you own nothing but Berkshire and want to retire and start a liquidation program, what's a good rule to use?"
Or more general ones about longevity risk?

Jim
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Author: mdtls   😊 😞
Number: of 598 
Subject: Re: Jim's 'annuitization'
Date: 09/18/2023 4:57 PM
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Thanks for jumping in, Jim.

I too am starting the 'drawdown phase' and have settled on the scheme of selling shares to fund life in lieu of a port full of divvy makers. To me it makes sense.

I've hoarded a good sized bucket of B's over the years and the thought of selling them is hard to wrap my head around, but it'll have to be done to some extent.

I read as much as I can find about selling shares slowly (while good managers grow the underlying share value'hopefully).

Your thoughts on this strategy would be wildly well received.

m
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Author: mungofitch 🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝 BRONZE
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Subject: Re: Jim's 'annuitization'
Date: 09/19/2023 6:08 AM
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There are usually two goals to be considered when designing a portfolio drawdown strategy.
First, it's nice to get better returns than the average person: a higher average sale price for a higher average income, perhaps an increase in portfolio size.
And second, you want to deal with longevity risk: you want to spend as much as your portfolio as you can before you croak, but never take the risk of outliving your assets: being old is bad, and being broke is bad, but being both is horrible.

I've posted on various possible ways to handle both of these conundrums, since I find both of them interesting subjects. I'll be happy to dig up links to anything that strikes your fancy.

The first issue is best summed up by a simple observation: there are ways to get a better realized price from periodic sales, but at the trade-off of irregular income stream. You can think of it as a tuning knob: more irregular liquidations and higher long run income, versus steadier and lower.
If you can handle irregularity in return for higher returns/income, there are schemes that I can suggest.
One method I mentioned assumes nothing about the valuation of the stock, but merely sells a bit each time there is a new high price. However, as the time since the most recent sale lengthens, it "decays" the target price representing the previous high. This is an example: green dots represent days you'd sell some stock. http://stonewellfunds.com/SWRpri075.jpg The blue line is of course the stock price, and the yellow line is the target line for a new sale: high to date, falling gradually. Note that the average level of a green dot (sale) in any stretch of 2-3 years is a fair bit higher than the average level of the blue line (stock price), maybe 3% or so.

At the other extreme is steady selling. My own will suggests that my accountant and spouse arrange the following: put half the portfolio into BRK stock and half into a fund I've chosen. Each quarter, sell 1.4% of however many shares of each one are currently remaining. (any dividends that have arrived during the quarter can be considered like shares that have already been sold, reducing the sale size). The income is irregular only to the extent that the price varies. By construction, the portfolio will have the same real value 20 years later if the investment have an underlying return of inflation + 5.80%/year. If returns are better than that, the income will rise (irregularly) over time. But the scheme's success does not depend too heavily on that number...even if the portfolio manages only inflation + 4.0%, the portfolio will still have 71% of the starting real value at year 20.

A good strategy really should adapt to the progress in the value of the underlying asset. Starting to deal with the second goal at the top, the limit on how much you can withdraw from any portfolio is ultimately capped by the value generation of that portfolio. So, if you can estimate the value, you can safely liquidate the amount by which it has risen in real terms since you started your sale program. If you don't exceed that, your income may vary and could fall to zero, but you're guaranteed never to run your portfolio down to zero by selling too much. For this strategy, I have suggested something like this: each quarter, estimate the value of a Berkshire portfolio based on the 16 most recent values of book per share, adjusted for inflation, using a "weighted moving average" (WMA). That just means that the most recent figure gets a weight of 16, the second-newest gets a weight of 15, and so on down to a weight of 1 for the oldest figure. The smoothing is calculated to be just enough to keep the estimated value rising (though more slowly) through dips in book value due to bear markets, while adapting automatically to medium to long term changes in the rate of growth of the value of the firm. Then, just calculate how much this metric of value has risen since the last time you checked, and sell the difference: to the extent that your value estimate tracks the stock's value over time with decent accuracy, your portfolio will by construction always have the same real (after inflation) value. Possible elaboration 1: don't sell the amount recommended, sell 90% of that. This adds a bit of conservatism, and should lead to the real value and real income rising a little bit over time. Another elaboration 2: I have a lot of confidence in Berkshire. I think you could safely put a floor on the withdrawal amount: if the sum of the last four calculated liquidations (three actual plus current recommended) is less than 4% of your original starting portfolio value, go ahead and sell a bit more so you're always getting a minimum 4% real withdrawal rate in any rolling year. With those two elaborations, a $1 million portfolio started in 2000 would have a real value of $1.20 today, a rate of return of inflation + 0.79%/year, after having paid out an average of $79126/year in real terms in any rolling year, ranging from $40000 to $137590.

For longevity risk, the only really sensible solution is a pooled scheme. The chances are by definition low that you'll live to an unusually ripe old age, so it doesn't make sense for every individual investor to hold back a large fraction of their funds against that remote possibility. Better for everybody to put aside a little into a common pot, and use that pot to support the few people who end up needing that income. So I usually recommend a two part solution. Estimate your life expectancy age and add a bit. Buy a deferred annuity (or tontine if you can find one!) to handle your income after that date till your death. Depending on your age, this might be 5-15% of your capital at a guess. Then, spend the rest of your portfolio in a roughly straight line from now till then. (each year with N years remaining on the straight line, go ahead and spend 1/N of the portfolio). Just as your personal portfolio runs out, your pooled scheme kicks in and supports you for life. Annuities are a total ripoff in many ways, but they do solve a real problem, and most of the disadvantages (hugely negative expected internal rate of return) don't apply if you get one when you're already quite old. Possible refinements: don't buy a very-deferred annuity. Instead, put that money into inflation protected bonds maturing when you need that income, or not too long before that. When the bonds mature, buy the annuity. An immediate annuity producing $X income starting age 85 is much cheaper if bought at age 85 (after 20 years of mildly positive real bond returns) than a deferred annuity purchased at age 65, plus you skip 20 years of credit risk and inflation from the insurer and leave a much bigger estate if you die sooner. The only disadvantage is it's a little harder to calculate precisely how much to set aside.
A couple of random annuity data points: a male Canadian age 80 can get an immediate single-life non-inflation-adjusted annuity paying 9630/year these days. Probably more, that's just the first number I found. Breakeven not counting inflation is at age 90.4, and life expectancy is about 89, so the loss is not large. The advantage is that it covers you for life, as there's a 10% chance of reaching age 96+, and 2.7% of reaching 100+. It is usually better to use extra money to buy a larger non-inflation-protected annuity than to buy the more expensive partly-inflation-protected one, as they tend to overcharge for inflation protection and in any case it is usually only partial. You can also use a small portion of the annuity budget to buy a second deferred non-inflation-protected annuity, to top up the real income starting after some years: also cheaper than an "inflation protected" product.

I can probably post links for more information on any of these that might be of interest. What can I say, I'm a mortality geek.

Jim

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Author: wan123   😊 😞
Number: of 598 
Subject: Re: Jim's 'annuitization'
Date: 09/19/2023 9:26 AM
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Jim,
MY wife and I are both 83 fairly good health,no kids.
Pension and soc sec covers yearly expenses now.
No stocks, all money invested in 3 moth treasury bills, a subatancial amount of money.
I would appreciate your advice on how to invest to protect for lengevity- stocks, annuities, etc.

Thanks in advance.
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Author: mungofitch 🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝 BRONZE
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Number: of 12641 
Subject: Re: Jim's 'annuitization'
Date: 09/19/2023 11:46 AM
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I would appreciate your advice on how to invest to protect for lengevity- stocks, annuities, etc.

Well, it's always very dangerous to give financial advice. It really is necessary to know a lot more about someone's situation, but I don't want you to tell me that. And besides, I'm just some guy on the internet.

But some general thoughts:
* You're a little older than the average person planning a retirement withdrawal portfolio, which makes a difference, especially for annuities. The older you are, the more they make sense, since longevity risk dominates discussion of internal rate of return.
* The usual assumption is that at some point you simply don't feel like making fresh investment decisions--simple is great.

I won't discuss the issue of the size of your estate you want to leave. Just carve that off separately and the following notions are for the remainder, which is presumably for living expenses.

In your shoes, much as I hate buying something with a negative investment return, I'd certainly lean strongly towards annuities.

Here is a random thought--imagine what the result would feel like.

Pick an amount that you might use for annuitization. Maybe all of it, maybe not.

Put 79% of your annuitization money into an immediate joint annuity with no inflation protection. A random spot check in the US suggests this will pay 10.73%/year (nominal) till the second of you dies.
Put 9.4% into a 3 year TIPS bond. When it matures, put it into an immediate joint annuity. (if only one of you is still alive, a single annuity = higher income)
Put 5.3% into a 6 year TIPS bond. When it matures, put it into an immediate joint annuity. ( " )
Put 3.7% into a 9 year TIPS bond. When it matures, put it into an immediate joint annuity. ( " )
Put 2.6% into a 12 year TIPS bond. When it matures, put it into an immediate joint annuity. ( " )

This will give you a constant real income (variation less than 7% from starting amount--rounding error!) till age 97, and erode with inflation thereafter.
By my estimation, it will give you spending money equal to a real coupon of 8.42%/year on initial funds till you are both gone. (min 7.89%, max 8.78%)

These are my back-of-the-envelope estimates of the annual payments, nominal (today's dollars) and real (assuming 3.5% inflation).
  $8474  $8474 (age 83)
8474 8178
8474 7891
9772 8782
9772 8474
9772 8178
10872 8779
10872 8472
10872 8176
12094 8777
12094 8469
12094 8173
13468 8783
13468 8475
13468 8179
13468 7892 (losses from inflation start)
13468 7616
13468 7349
13468 7092
13468 6844
13468 6604
13468 6373
13468 6150 (age 105)

Jim
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Author: carolsharp   😊 😞
Number: of 12641 
Subject: Re: Jim's 'annuitization'
Date: 09/19/2023 4:03 PM
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Buffett said a 5% "Berkshire share" withdrawal rate will last a very, very long time.

What does that look like? Say you have $1,000,000 in Berkshire. Today's price is $370. So, 2,703 shares. Assume 7% real growth?


Today you sell 135 shares and pocket $50,006.
Next year you sell 128 shares and pocket $50,831.
Year three you sell 122 shares and pocket $51,669.
...
Year ten you sell 85 shares and pocket $57,941. Your Berkshire stake is now worth $1,158,815.
...
Year twenty you sell 51 shares and pocket $68,243. Your Berkshire stake is now worth $1,364,860.
...
Year thirty you sell 31 shares and pocket $80,377. Your Berkshire stake is now worth $1,607,540. You have 580 shares left.


You have less shares, but they're worth more. Of course, in practice it won't unfold exactly like this, but I think the result will be satisfactory.
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Author: longtimebrk 🐝  😊 😞
Number: of 12641 
Subject: Re: Jim's 'annuitization'
Date: 09/19/2023 5:05 PM
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I think 5% is aggressive
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Author: FlyingCircus 🐝  😊 😞
Number: of 12641 
Subject: Re: Jim's 'annuitization'
Date: 09/19/2023 9:56 PM
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Jimbo - where are you getting quotes for an immediate annuity (SPIA with a spouse) with an annual payout of 10+%??
I'm evaluating taking a lump sum from my pension and annuitizing that - I'm seeing best payout at 6.4%. What am I doing wrong?
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Author: sutton 🐝  😊 😞
Number: of 12641 
Subject: Re: Jim's 'annuitization'
Date: 09/20/2023 8:40 AM
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I'm not Jim, but I suspect it's that you're not old enough. The OP (and his wife) are 83

--sutton
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Author: WEBspired 🐝  😊 😞
Number: of 12641 
Subject: Re: Jim's 'annuitization'
Date: 09/20/2023 8:53 AM
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'I think 5% is aggressive'

https://www.reuters.com/markets/us/warren-buffetts...

Seems to have worked out relatively well for Warren. I imagine he gave this % a good bit of thought.

'Buffett has already donated more than half of his Berkshire stock. He still owned more than $112.5 billion, or 15.1%, of Berkshire shares following Wednesday's donations.

The number of shares Buffett donates falls by 5% each year, but this year's dollar amount set a record because Berkshire's stock price has been rising.'
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Author: longtimebrk 🐝  😊 😞
Number: of 12641 
Subject: Re: Jim's 'annuitization'
Date: 09/20/2023 9:05 AM
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"Seems to have worked out relatively well for Warren. I imagine he gave this % a good bit of thought."

that is an excellent point. Time to plan to spend much more!
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Author: mungofitch 🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝 BRONZE
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Number: of 12641 
Subject: Re: Jim's 'annuitization'
Date: 09/20/2023 11:06 AM
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Buffett said a 5% "Berkshire share" withdrawal rate will last a very, very long time.

I agree.
That would be my "go to" suggestion for someone younger, where a positive rate of return matters.
But there exists a certain age at which the high payout of an annuity, and the way it covers longevity risk, becomes very compelling, even if it has a negative net present value.

If you want to fund a retirement starting at (say) age 55, you really want a positive internal rate of return for the bulk of the money. There are enough decades for it to really matter.
That's when I'd lean more towards a temporally split strategy, e.g. gradual equity liquidation formula 55-85 (sorta linear run-down to zero), and an annuity thereafter.
e.g., the 55 year old might put 85-90% into BRK or other good equities, and 10-15% into 30 year TIPS to fund the annuity or annuities when they mature.

Jim
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Author: wan123   😊 😞
Number: of 12641 
Subject: Re: Jim's 'annuitization'
Date: 09/20/2023 5:19 PM
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Jim, thank for the plan,
One more question, what would you in vest in with any excess amount from the annuity "not" used, each year?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, it's always very dangerous to give financial advice. It really is necessary to know a lot more about someone's situation, but I don't want you to tell me that. And besides, I'm just some guy on the internet.

But some general thoughts:
* You're a little older than the average person planning a retirement withdrawal portfolio, which makes a difference, especially for annuities. The older you are, the more they make sense, since longevity risk dominates discussion of internal rate of return.
* The usual assumption is that at some point you simply don't feel like making fresh investment decisions--simple is great.

I won't discuss the issue of the size of your estate you want to leave. Just carve that off separately and the following notions are for the remainder, which is presumably for living expenses.

In your shoes, much as I hate buying something with a negative investment return, I'd certainly lean strongly towards annuities.

Here is a random thought--imagine what the result would feel like.

Pick an amount that you might use for annuitization. Maybe all of it, maybe not.

Put 79% of your annuitization money into an immediate joint annuity with no inflation protection. A random spot check in the US suggests this will pay 10.73%/year (nominal) till the second of you dies.
Put 9.4% into a 3 year TIPS bond. When it matures, put it into an immediate joint annuity. (if only one of you is still alive, a single annuity = higher income)
Put 5.3% into a 6 year TIPS bond. When it matures, put it into an immediate joint annuity. ( " )
Put 3.7% into a 9 year TIPS bond. When it matures, put it into an immediate joint annuity. ( " )
Put 2.6% into a 12 year TIPS bond. When it matures, put it into an immediate joint annuity. ( " )

This will give you a constant real income (variation less than 7% from starting amount--rounding error!) till age 97, and erode with inflation thereafter.
By my estimation, it will give you spending money equal to a real coupon of 8.42%/year on initial funds till you are both gone. (min 7.89%, max 8.78%)
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Author: onepoorguy 🐝  😊 😞
Number: of 12641 
Subject: Re: Jim's 'annuitization'
Date: 09/20/2023 9:01 PM
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The 5% Berkshire share may be a good strategy for today. But will Berkshire still be good in 20 years? I doubt Buffett will be alive by then. Will it continue to be a juggernaut? I don't know, I'm asking. But I do know that things change. Once upon a time I was told to buy Bethlehem Steel. I don't think they exist anymore. IBM and XEROX were sure things when I was a teenager. The "sure thing" companies of today hadn't even been formed yet.** Pan Am was so big they were thought to be the likely candidate for a space plane (2001), and now they're gone.

Disclaimer: I don't follow BRK, but the assumption that they will still be the juggernaut of the past -especially after Buffett leaves- seems a risky assumption to me.



**OK...MSFT was founded in 1975, so I wasn't quite a teenager yet. But they far outpace IBM and XEROX from 1986 (the furthest I could go back) to today. Not even close. Several other companies I could name were formed after 1980.
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Author: WEBspired 🐝  😊 😞
Number: of 12641 
Subject: Re: Jim's 'annuitization'
Date: 09/20/2023 10:19 PM
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'The 5% Berkshire share may be a good strategy for today. But will Berkshire still be good in 20 years?'

My 2 cents- I personally feel as good about a very large position (70% of our investable assets) in BRK going forward as any other option.

Warren has painted and built this masterpiece for nearly 60 years and imo esp. over the last 25 years he has thoughtfully built it to last for many decades- Diversified Insurance with Huge cost-free float, Largest railroad in BNSF, BHE-forward thinking with tremendous growth potential and tax credits and Greg Abel's expertise, 360B in high quality equities where the large positions seem built to last (AAPL, KO, AXP, CVX, OXY, BAC, Japanese trading houses), a huge position in cash/ cash equivalents and a very diversified MSR group. BRK is built to weather nearly any storm.

BRK now has $1T in current assets. Chris Bloomstran estimated it will produce $54B in normalized earnings this year. Jim's data points towards returns of inflation +7-8% on average. BRK will continue to be a cash (and allocation) machine. WEB and Charlie have developed the culture and blueprint and hand picked outstanding and proven leadership from within BRK. Greg and Ajit each own over $100M each of BRK stock which they bought. The Board is outstanding and highly aligned with Warren's vision and owners as well. I also think we have an outstanding group of shareholder owners who are well informed and passionate about BRK and it's culture.

20 year prediction is a long time, but I honestly feel very comfortable going forward, well beyond the Buffett and Munger era. Warren has said he loves having 99% of his assets in BRK stock and he wants very satisfactory ongoing growth for the 5 foundations he supports. Charlie also has said essentially that Warren has so brilliantly painted this masterpiece that of course he has it well positioned to prosper well into the future and advised the Munger family to never sell their BRK shares.
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Author: mdtls   😊 😞
Number: of 12641 
Subject: Re: Jim's 'annuitization'
Date: 09/21/2023 12:00 PM
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Mr. Jim-

Can't thank you enough for the response to my question. After reading your reply a few times, I was particularly struck by this:

"put half the portfolio into BRK stock and half into a fund I've chosen. Each quarter, sell 1.4% of however many shares of each one are currently remaining. (any dividends that have arrived during the quarter can be considered like shares that have already been sold, reducing the sale size)."

A couple questions if you don't mind. Bear in mind my situation will not have any managed funds as long as I'm above ground. Rather, a fairly concentrated portfolio of 10'ish positions;

1. Why withdraw monthly as opposed to the 'bucket approach' (selling enough to cover 2-5 years living expenses...logic being you aren't forced to sell a tranche in softer markets)? I'm going to assume 'timing' is next to impossible and that is the big consideration. Also, monthly withdrawals are in essence a dollar cost averaging strategy (during our accumulation phase)in reverse. That certainly makes sense to me. Over a couple decades an average is achieved.

2. Mechanically...a monthly 1.4% calculation, sale(s) and withdrawal is clearly a recurring process with some complexity baked in. Not a problem, I get it. I have not asked Schwab yet what they can do make a recurring withdrawal process easier...and perhaps more importantly, error free. Any suggestions on the mechanics? Not asking for a white paper...perhaps just some of the bigger pot-holes to avoid.

Again, much appreciated.

m
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Author: rayvt 🐝  😊 😞
Number: of 12641 
Subject: Re: Jim's 'annuitization'
Date: 09/21/2023 3:09 PM
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Why withdraw monthly as opposed to the 'bucket approach' (selling enough to cover 2-5 years living expenses...logic being you aren't forced to sell a tranche in softer markets)?

1) Basically because the 'bucket approach' is an illusion. When you look at the entire situation over time and do a money flow diagram you'll see this. Guess what your portfolio looks like after the 2-5 year period is over. Right, identical to not having done that "cash bucket" at all. People wrongly focus on the 1st 2-5 years and ignore the remaining 30+ years.
Every day is the first day of the lifetime of your portfolio.

2) If you take a fixed periodic withdrawal then you _will_ get the average.
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Author: Cardude   😊 😞
Number: of 12641 
Subject: Re: Jim's 'annuitization'
Date: 09/22/2023 10:37 AM
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Jim is a wealth of knowledge on spending down a portfolio composed mostly of Berkshire, because that's pretty much his situation I think.

He convinced me to stop holding onto so much cash (5-8 years worth of expenses), and instead, like you said, just sell monthly/quarterly and cost average OUT of Berkshire. I had lots of trouble trying to time my Berkshire sales at decent valuations to refill my too large cash bucket, and lots of regret when I didn't time it correctly with such large sales. I still keep 2 years in cash just as a pacifier, but selling small amounts usually quarterly is much easier on my brain now.
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Author: mdtls   😊 😞
Number: of 12641 
Subject: Re: Jim's 'annuitization'
Date: 09/22/2023 10:45 AM
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I made an error. I meant to write selling quarterly, not monthly. Jim's strategy sells quarterly...

Thanks ravyt and Cardude for the input. Cost averaging on the way down makes as much sense as cost averaging on the way up. Perfect logic.

m
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Author: WEBspired 🐝  😊 😞
Number: of 12641 
Subject: Re: Jim's 'annuitization'
Date: 09/23/2023 10:38 AM
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' Cost averaging on the way down makes as much sense as cost averaging on the way up.'

I certainly cannot argue with this philosophy However, just like many of us have squeezed an extra 1-2% out of total Berkshire returns buying when it is cheap, I would like to think that we could potentially do this when we sell, and it is relatively highly priced relative to its norm since 2008. For instance, the price spread over the last 52 weeks has been 260-373! Between our judgment, the price to book charts, and Jim's generous data and guidance, I would think one could potentially time sales when it is more richly valued than average, like about a week ago when BRK was priced in its top decile of its P/B range.

Maybe the theory is better than the practice, but I am going to at least try to time my sales (be they less frequent)when it is priced in its higher than normal range. It seems like it would not take a lot of time or effort to follow this strategy.
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