Post New

Disclosure: I've not read details beyond headlines -- I just don't care enough about your tribal politics until and unless it's violent. I do headlines and try to tell myself I know the trends a bit.


Anyhow - as I understand it - and I could be way wrong is that Trump inflated asset values to make his balance sheet look better and thus secure more favorable loan and financing terms.

Sadly I never made it even close to the level of these big-shots so I've never dealt at that level.

But back when I had businesses and gave a shit about making money and couldn't get enough of it, I had made 2 separate purchases of commercial real estate.

My bank (slightly larger regional player - good people) wanted 10% down and 5% down on the deals respectively. I could've done it but being in growth mode I wanted to preserve the cash to grow the business.

Anyhow, the regional director whom I had a great rapport with who knew my business got involved. Mind you I was wildly profitable, good reputation, blah blah etc.

It took about oh, 30 minutes of chatting and he told the local bank manager who worked for him "Have XYZ do the appraisal, and tell them we're gonna be fine on this one". A week later a legit appraisal company did it .....and by golly, the "appraised value" happened to be to the penny where I only needed 5% down on deal 1 - -- - and ZERO% on deal two and what a coincidence - the Loan to Value shows 80% on both.

There were and ARE other facets of bank lending where the banks, those the conduits, everyone openly KNOWS that values are being inflated. It was happening in the 80s, 90s, 00s, 10s, and it happened while you were reading this post I guarantee.

IF Trump was nailed for inflating values - well - that is kinda scary. That means we are Putin, minus pushing people off balconies - mind you, we've done that too.

Anyhow, diner treat this morning. LOL I used to cater meals for staff and it was not uncommon to spend $400 a crack. Now I get here on time for the breakfast specials.

Things change.

Disclosure: I've not read details beyond headlines -- I just don't care enough about your tribal politics until and unless it's violent. I do headlines and try to tell myself I know the trends a bit.

Every once in a while I take people out of the box. This reminds me why I put you into the box.

Funny part is - - you can't put the tribalism and political violence in the box.

The most you can segregate now is your Liberal enclaves.

Sorry, the bus is for all of us now.

Put the rainbow hood back on.

I'm not quite sure you can have a crime without any actual harm, but in New York they've found a law and a willing prosecutor, so away we go.

Me, I'd like to see all their commercial real estate developers understand that any one of them could be next...and I hope every one of them decamps and heads to a red state. Let New York build nothing going forward.

I'm not quite sure you can have a crime without any actual harm, but in New York they've found a law and a willing prosecutor, so away we go.

If you're referring to the recent proceeding, it wasn't a criminal trial. It was civil fraud.

Second, there was actual harm. If you fraudulently deceive a lender about the value of your collateral, you can receive a lower interest rate than if you were truthful. Even if you don't default, the lender is harmed because you misled them into giving you an interest rate that didn't accurately reflect the risk that the lender was running. The fact that you didn't default on the loan doesn't mean they weren't harmed by your fraud.

Anyhow - as I understand it - and I could be way wrong is that Trump inflated asset values to make his balance sheet look better and thus secure more favorable loan and financing terms.

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Not really. Have you ever financed a home purchase without them requiring an appraisal as part of the application review process?

The bank doesn't care what you say your dream house is worth, the bank wants an independent assessment of the value of that home in that market that their underwriters can compare to loan amount requested. They do this to assure themselves that the asset is worth more than the requested loan amount by a margin sufficient to account for the making the loan.

Same with Trumps commercial loans, just with bigger numbers. That the NY case cannot find an injured party should tell you this is kangaroo justice.

Re-Post with a correction - bolded below; where is that edit function?

Anyhow - as I understand it - and I could be way wrong is that Trump inflated asset values to make his balance sheet look better and thus secure more favorable loan and financing terms. - Wilson

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Not really. Have you ever financed a home purchase without them requiring an appraisal as part of the application review process?

The bank doesn't care what you say your dream house is worth, the bank wants an independent assessment of the value of that home in that market that their underwriters can compare to loan amount requested. They do this to assure themselves that the asset is worth more than the requested loan amount by a margin sufficient to account for the risk associated with making the loan.

Same with Trumps commercial loans, just with bigger numbers. That the NY case cannot find an injured party should tell you this is kangaroo justice.

Actually, if the allegations are true, then there is an injured party. However, those parties should have done their own independent appraisals. So it is their stupidity for not doing that, and relying on the Trump organization to supply accurate numbers. But just because you're stupid doesn't mean someone didn't commit a fraud against you. That you got lucky and didn't lose any money is, apparently in terms of the laws on the books, irrelevant. IANAL, but that's how I understand it.

They also perpetrated (potentially) a fraud against the government(s) since they tried to undervalue their assets for tax purposes, and overvalue them for collateral/loan purposes.

bighairymike: Not really. Have you ever financed a home purchase without them requiring an appraisal as part of the application review process?

The bank doesn't care what you say your dream house is worth, the bank wants an independent assessment...

Gee, it's almost like you don't know what you're talking about.

Here. Here's a portion of the summary of the opinion:

The lenders required personal guarantees from Donald Trump, which were based on statements of financial condition compiled by accountants that Donald Trump engaged. The accountants created these “compilations” based on data submitted by the Trump entities. In order to borrow more and at lower rates, defendants submitted blatantly false financial data to the accountants, resulting in fraudulent financial statements. When confronted at trial with the statements, defendants’ fact and expert witnesses simply denied reality, and defendants failed to accept responsibility or to impose internal controls to prevent future recurrences.

Wait, no, there's no "almost"... you don't know what you're talking about.

bighairymike: Not really. Have you ever financed a home purchase without them requiring an appraisal as part of the application review process?

The bank doesn't care what you say your dream house is worth, the bank wants an independent assessment...

Why do you feel so compelled to defend Trump at every turn. Surely you can see he is a corrupt actor, a crook, a liar, a thoroughly despicable scoundrel.

If you're referring to the recent proceeding, it wasn't a criminal trial. It was civil fraud.

Okay, I'll rephrase: I'm not sure how you haul some sap in front of a judge without actual harm taking place, but there goes New York.

Second, there was actual harm. If you fraudulently deceive a lender about the value of your collateral, you can receive a lower interest rate than if you were truthful.

Sure. If that's what happened here, but that's not what happened here.

Per your point, what is the bank's incentive with respect to asset valuation?

Why do you feel so compelled to defend Trump at every turn. Surely you can see he is a corrupt actor, a crook, a liar, a thoroughly despicable scoundrel. - ges

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Simple really, I think Trump's policies will lead our country to a more secure and prosperous future than any alternative available right now. Personally I was rooting to Ramaswamy even though I knew he had little chance, but Trump is an easy choice over more Biden.

If that's what happened here, but that's not what happened here.

That what the judge found had happened here. One component of the monetary award is an assessment of the gains that Trump obtained through the fraud:

The monetary penalties involve what Engoron said were “ill-gotten gains” that Trump attained by making himself seem richer. They include money Trump saved by securing lower loan interest rates and profits from the sale of properties that he might not have been able to develop without that financing.

https://apnews.com/article/trump-civil-fraud-verdi...

Engoron found that Trump lied about the value of his properties, allowing him to obtain lower interest rates on his loans and to obtain loans on development projects that otherwise would not have been given to him had he been truthful about property valuation.

That what the judge found had happened here. One component of the monetary award is an assessment of the gains that Trump obtained through the fraud:


There was no fraud. Asset management - especially of property - is partially accounting, partially an art form.

Engoron found that Trump lied about the value of his properties, allowing him to obtain lower interest rates on his loans and to obtain loans on development projects that otherwise would not have been given to him had he been truthful about property valuation.

Then every real estate developer across the country is guilty. Sorry, but this judge is a partisan idiot.

Want proof? Here you go:
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/03/business/trump-frau...

“From 2011-2021, the Palm Beach County Assessor appraised the market value of Mar-a-Lago at between $18 million and $27.6 million,” Engoron wrote in his ruling.

The judge noted Trump valued Mar-a-Lago at between $426.5 million and $612 million, “an overvaluation of at least 2,300%, compared to the assessor’s appraisal.”

Question for you: Do you think Mar-A-Lago is worth $27.6 million?

There was no fraud. Asset management - especially of property - is partially accounting, partially an art form.

Claiming that there was no fraud is different than claiming that there were no harmed parties.

The judge found that Trump lied about the value of his assets to his lenders. You can disagree with whether the evidence supports that finding or not. But if Trump did lie about the value of his assets, then those lenders would have been harmed by the lies - because they would have taken actions/refrained from taking actions that cost them money.

Question for you: Do you think Mar-A-Lago is worth $27.6 million?

It's certainly worth closer to $27.6 million than $400-600 million.

Property appraiser assessments are never 100% accurate reflections of market value - and they're not intended to be, usually, given that property appraisers use specific valuation methods that are designed to ostensibly prioritize other values, like ease of administration and uniformity across the jurisdiction. So if I see a property appraiser value (in Florida) of $27.6 million, it would not be surprising if the property were worth even as much as double that.

But more than an order of magnitude higher? No.

I'll just reply to myself here and restate things.

That "judge" is an idiot, and no, I don't need to know anything about his background to know that he sucks at his job.

Let's keeping picking on the $27.6M valuation for Mar-a-Lago. MaL has 62k square feet of buildings on a 17 acre plot and contains a highly developed resort with multiple amenities right on the water.

Say. Maybe in doing an initial valuation exercise we might want to know what land goes for in the general vicinity? That way we at least have a baseline. Is there any land for sale around that same area?

https://www.landsearch.com/properties/1820-s-ocean...

2 Acres of Residential Land for Sale in Manalapan, Florida
1820 S Ocean Blvd, Manalapan, FL 33462

This is vacant land 8.7 miles down the A1A from MaL.
https://www.bing.com/maps?q=mar-a-lago+size&FORM=H...

I highly doubt there's a toxic waste Superfund site, prison, garbage dump or chemical plant in this part of Florida so let's assume that land valuations are consistent between MaL and this place.

How much is this? one might ask. It's...$27.6M - what a coincidence - and it's on...1.97 acres. That pencils out to...hmmm...carry the one...$14.01M/acre.

So that means that just on land value alone MaL is worth AT LEAST $238 million.

Let's forget about the 62,000 square feet of buildings and the fact that this is a money generating resort with a golf course on site. How does the judge's ruling that Trump inflated the value by 2,000something percent look now?

Or, rephrasing - How incompetent does the judge's ruling look now?

The judge found that Trump lied about the value of his assets to his lenders. You can disagree with whether the evidence supports that finding or not. But if Trump did lie about the value of his assets, then those lenders would have been harmed by the lies - because they would have taken actions/refrained from taking actions that cost them money.

See my next post.
The judge should be sanctioned.

So if I see a property appraiser value (in Florida) of $27.6 million, it would not be surprising if the property were worth even as much as double that.

LOL. See my next post.

Dope1: Question for you: Do you think Mar-A-Lago is worth $27.6 million?

Umm, in 2020 his own company said the Palm Beach appraiser was right when the county valued Mar-a-Lago at $27 million. That came out in court.

So let me repeat: the Trump Organization agreed with the county assessor that Mar-a-Lago was worth $27 million.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-mar-a-lago-1-8-...

How much is this? one might ask. It's...$27.6M - what a coincidence - and it's on...1.97 acres. That pencils out to...hmmm...carry the one...$14.01M/acre.

Except, of course, that the price that one lists something at is not necessarily the price that one sells something at. Especially if it's been on the market for more than a year.

So let's look for something that's sold. One block down from your example, we have a home that just sold a few days ago. Also for $27.5 million, coincidentally - but this one is improved with a 12,000 square foot mansion on it and is on four acres:

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1960-S-Ocean-Bl...

Hmmm...I wonder if anything else might be in play? Perhaps the fact that the Manalapan properties come with private beach access (each of the lots covers both sides of Ocean Boulevard, allowing the owner to have one of the rarest amenities that exists in Florida)? Perhaps because Mar-A-Lago is encumbered with a historic preservation easement, which prohibits not only changing the exterior (which is burdensome but common for single-family residential historic properties), but also portions of the interior? Or the deed restriction which prohibits it being used for anything but a private club, which is an extraordinary burden on the Property?

Let's look at what the Property Appraiser has done for your property. Hmmm...they appraised the land value at about $15 million - which is pretty close to the market price that this seller might get for that land.

https://pbcpao.gov/Property/Summary?parcelId=42434...

So the Property Appraiser got the appraised value approximately right for your example - but is off by 1800% for Mar-A-Lago?

See my next post.
The judge should be sanctioned.

Yeah, no.

Mar-a-Lago is a problem property - a White Elephant, valued to the person who lives there now but not in the open market. It's 17 acres zoned single-family residential in a residential neighborhood subject to deed restrictions that prohibit it from ever being subdivided and from being used for anything other than a club and is subject to a historic designation restriction.

If you scraped Mar-a-Lago and put it on the market, but it was subject to that no-subdivision requirement, it wouldn't get $100 million (no single family home in the State had ever sold for that much when Trump valued it). Add in the historic designation and the club requirement, and you're not going to get anywhere close to that. If Trump said it was worth $400-600 million, he was lying through his teeth.

bmh -Simple really, I think Trump's policies will lead our country to a more secure and prosperous future than any alternative available right now.
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ok simple really, what exactly are those policies that will lead our country to a more secure and prosperous future than any alternative available right now?

very curious

bmh -Simple really, I think Trump's policies will lead our country to a more secure and prosperous future than any alternative available right now.

An astonishing conclusion given all that is known about this corrupt wannabe dictator.

So let's look for something that's sold. One block down from your example, we have a home that just sold a few days ago. Also for $27.5 million, coincidentally - but this one is improved with a 12,000 square foot mansion on it and is on four acres:

$29M on 4 acres. You understand that if I take this as the baseline, it still makes the judge look bad?
(MaL on 17 would be $123M).

Perhaps because Mar-A-Lago is encumbered with a historic preservation easement, which prohibits not only changing the exterior (which is burdensome but common for single-family residential historic properties), but also portions of the interior? Or the deed restriction which prohibits it being used for anything but a private club, which is an extraordinary burden on the Property?

Yeah, because nobody would buy it as a resort.

So the Property Appraiser got the appraised value approximately right for your example - but is off by 1800% for Mar-A-Lago?

Ahem.
Market value /= appraised value. When a property sells, then the two are one and the same but not before.

Mar-a-Lago is a problem property

A luxo golf course on some of Florida's most expensive real estate. I think that's called a "First world problem" but YMMV.

It's 17 acres zoned single-family residential in a residential neighborhood subject to deed restrictions that prohibit it from ever being subdivided and from being used for anything other than a club and is subject to a historic designation restriction.

And...? What if I'm Trendwest and I want to add it to my stable?

If you scraped Mar-a-Lago and put it on the market, but it was subject to that no-subdivision requirement, it wouldn't get $100 million (no single family home in the State had ever sold for that much when Trump valued it). Add in the historic designation and the club requirement, and you're not going to get anywhere close to that. If Trump said it was worth $400-600 million, he was lying through his teeth.

https://www.palmbeachdailynews.com/story/business/...

Several agents and brokers said that if sold in this market, Mar-a-Lago would be worth about $400 million at a bare minimum and perhaps as much as $550 million or even more.

But it's probably worth more than that.
The same real estate pro mentioned the recent sale of another commercial trophy property in Palm Beach County. Today known as The Boca Raton, the former Boca Raton Resort & Club sold in 2019 for a reported $875 million — which included the historic hotel and a members-only club — to a company led by billionaire Michael Dell.

Again, I hope every real estate developer flees New York and never goes back. They deserve that much for this blatantly political prosecution.

And BTW later on the group of owners for The Boca Raton pumped another $200M into it for refurbishments.
Meaning, an updated club with recent improvements would be worth more than the $875M TBR went for.

Wow, that Boca Raton is nice.

The Boca Raton (often called the Boca Resort by locals) is a luxury resort and club in Boca Raton, Florida, founded in 1926, today comprising 1,047 hotel rooms across 337 acres. Its facilities include a 18-hole golf course, a 50,000 sq. ft. Forbes Five-Star spa, eight swimming pools, 30 tennis courts, a full-service 32-slip marina, more than 15 restaurants and bars, and 200,000 sq. ft. of meeting space.[1][2] The property fronts both Lake Boca (part of the Intracoastal Waterway) and the Atlantic Ocean. The resort was operated as part of Hilton's Waldorf Astoria Hotels and Resorts, and it is now privately owned by an affiliate of MSD Partners with the new name, The Boca Raton.

It is 337 acres so it's 20 times the size of Mar a lago at 17 acres. So $887 million at 5%, 35 million for Mal? Did Don spend any money on Mal?

But Boca Raton is nice.

All evidence to the contrary,"I think Trump's policies will lead our country to a more secure and prosperous future

A nation led by science denying, fraudulent, religious bigots, conspiracy theorists... secure for whom? prosperous for whom?

Asset management - especially of property - is partially accounting, partially an art form.

If nothing else, that's a artful argument.

"Your honor, our CPAs and appraisers are artists. You simply don't appreciate fine art."

$29M on 4 acres. You understand that if I take this as the baseline, it still makes the judge look bad?
(MaL on 17 would be $123M).

No, it doesn't. First, because you can't prorate it like that - because Mar-a-Lago can't be subdivided. Four 4-acre luxury houses on 4 acres are worth far, far more than one luxury house on 17 acres. Second, because Mar-a-Lago doesn't have beachfront. And third, this is **today** - so something selling for $29 million today would not have sold for $29 million at the time Trump inflated his Mar-a-Lago values.

Yeah, because nobody would buy it as a resort.

Nobody would, because it's not a resort. It's a private club. It can't operate as a resort - it doesn't have the zoning for it.

A luxo golf course on some of Florida's most expensive real estate. I think that's called a "First world problem" but YMMV.

Mar-a-Lago doesn't have a golf course.

But it's probably worth more than that.

No, it's not. You're kidding with the Boca Raton comparison, right? The Boca Raton consists of 337 acres (20 times the size of Mar-a-Lago), has a 1,047 room hotel (which Mar-a-Lago doesn't have), a golf course and a full marina (which Mar-a-Lago doesn't have), a 50K square foot spa and health club (which Mar-a-Lago doesn't have), more than a dozen restaurants and bars and 200,000 s.f. of convention space (which....well, you know).

Mar-a-Lago can't be used as a hotel or resort. It can only be used as a private membership club. They can't expand it, they can't subdivide it, and they can't change the use. The historic designation makes it subpar for a luxury single-family home (very high-net worth people want to do their own thing); the highly restrictive zoning and small size makes it subpar for a resort (it can't be used as a hotel and it doesn't have the size for the amenities you need).

This is why despite the fact that there's lots of real estate brokers willing to mouth off to the press with ridiculous comps (the Boca Raton? Really?), you didn't have any appraisers saying under oath that it was worth $400-600M.

And BTW later on the group of owners for The Boca Raton pumped another $200M into it for refurbishments.
Meaning, an updated club with recent improvements would be worth more than the $875M TBR went for.

Maybe if it had a thousand hotel rooms on 337 acres and a golf course and marina and 200K square feet of convention space with a 50K spa and health club. But not a 33-bedroom, 60K s.f. private club that has none of those things.

Question for you: Do you think Mar-A-Lago is worth $27.6 million?

It's certainly worth closer to $27.6 million than $400-600 million.

Are there any comps to support the Trump claim? There are coastal properties comps in California and Hawaii that are comparable in acreage and desirability for the top 1% of the market. No way they are selling for $400 to $600.

Just up the beach from the Ritz Carlton Baccara is this 237 ocean front property with year round Mediterranean climate for $25 million. Reagan's Camino Cielo ranch is up the hill from it.

https://montecito-realestate.com/villa-del-mare

Dope1: A luxo golf course on some of Florida's most expensive real estate. I think that's called a "First world problem" but YMMV.

albaby1: Mar-a-Lago doesn't have a golf course.

Gotta' love the Trump Cult. They literally don't know what they're talking about but they never shut up.

A nation led by science denying, fraudulent, religious bigots, conspiracy theorists... secure for whom? prosperous for whom?

You have to ask? Trump and his corrupt cronies, of course. Look no further than Russia to see how that plays out. Seems a lot of MAGAs think that's a fine template for the US.

Gotta' love the Trump Cult. They literally don't know what they're talking about but they never shut up.

It's not easy being MAGA. You have to have an industrial strength resistance to the cognitive dissonance.

Mar-a-Lago doesn't have a golf course.

Then what's this: https://www.maralagoclub.com/golf

Mar-a-Lago can't be used as a hotel or resort. It can only be used as a private membership club.

My mistake. It has "Guest rooms", but those are for members.

This is why despite the fact that there's lots of real estate brokers willing to mouth off to the press with ridiculous comps (the Boca Raton? Really?), you didn't have any appraisers saying under oath that it was worth $400-600M.


As I've shown, appraised value /= market value (which is often more).

No, it doesn't. First, because you can't prorate it like that - because Mar-a-Lago can't be subdivided. Four 4-acre luxury houses on 4 acres are worth far, far more than one luxury house on 17 acres. Second, because Mar-a-Lago doesn't have beachfront. And third, this is **today** - so something selling for $29 million today would not have sold for $29 million at the time Trump inflated his Mar-a-Lago values.

I'm approximating land values. You're correct that a developer could reap much more than what the raw land value would bring in if the land could be subdivided into many homes.

Then what's this

A different property. There's a Trump-owned golf on the other side of the intracoastal. It's not part of Mar-a-Lago. Did you think it was?

My mistake. It has "Guest rooms", but those are for members.

Right. They can't charge for those rooms - it's not allowed to be a hotel. And since there's "only" 33 bathrooms in the residence, it in no way compares to the 1,074-room Boca Raton Hotel.

As I've shown, appraised value /= market value (which is often more).

But not an order of magnitude more. Property appraiser offices in Florida generally aren't aiming for exact market value, and they are often 10-20% below actual market value (cuts down on everyone filing valuation appeals) - but they're typically not appraising things at 1/15th of market.

Did you think it was?

I did. It's right next door to the club and he played there as President a lot.

But not an order of magnitude more. Property appraiser offices in Florida generally aren't aiming for exact market value, and they are often 10-20% below actual market value (cuts down on everyone filing valuation appeals) - but they're typically not appraising things at 1/15th of market.

Even then, you have to at least admit that the judge's mention of $27M for the entire thing...is laughable. There's literally zero possibility of anyone paying that little for MaL were it to hit the market. Zero.

I'm approximating land values. You're correct that a developer could reap much more than what the raw land value would bring in if the land could be subdivided into many homes.

But you can't back into a value for Mar-A-Lago that way - because so much of the value of a piece of property is derived from the use of the property, not merely the size of the lot. If you take a 4-acre single family luxury residence of $27 million and add another four acres - but aren't allowed to increase the number or size of the house - it's not going to now be worth $54 million. It will be worth more than before, but not a whole lot more. Because adding empty green space to a residential building doesn't really make the property all that more valuable if you can't build anything on the green space.

If you actually look at what Mar-a-Lago is, it has a very wonderful big old mansion (55 BR, 33BA) on 17 acres of land. But the land can't be subdivided, the mansion can't be expanded (it's historic), it can't be operated as a hotel (and it's too small and not built to be and it's not zoned for it), and it has relatively modest amenities. Most of the land area is just open lawn or parking. It's a long deep property - meaning it has relatively small waterfront relative to the overall size.

It's just insupportable to claim that it was worth $400-600 million dollars.

I did. It's right next door to the club and he played there as President a lot.

It's not right next door to the club. It's four miles away, out near the airport.

Even then, you have to at least admit that the judge's mention of $27M for the entire thing...is laughable. There's literally zero possibility of anyone paying that little for MaL were it to hit the market. Zero.

It wouldn't have sold for vastly closer to that amount than the amount Trump was valuing at, and I don't think noting the appraised value of $27M is laughable at all. We're not talking about current prices - we're looking at the 2010's. I don't think that you could have gotten much more than $30M for Mar-a-Lago on the open market back then, because it's got a lot of problems.

It's too big to be really usable for a single-family residence. It lacks the amenities that many Florida club facilities do (no beachfront, no marina, no golf course). The main structure is on the "wrong" side of the lot from the waterfront, which means nearly the whole property is just empty lawn and will remain that way. It can't be used as a hotel - and since all it's members will live locally, there's not all that much value or use for all those extra bedrooms. So you have a ton of expense for a lot of facility that doesn't generate any value. Because it's historic and zoned for residential/private club, you can't change any of those things.

But you can't back into a value for Mar-A-Lago that way - because so much of the value of a piece of property is derived from the use of the property, not merely the size of the lot.

We're going to disagree here. Land is valued separately for a reason, which is why I showed you the vacant lot literally down the road. Land is the starting point for what someone plans to do with the lot. In the case of MaL and the other place down the A1A they're in similar geographic and economic zones so the land values should be similar.

Land value is also the basis for every property tax statement - it's always Land + Buildings, which are assessed separately.

albaby1: Mar-a-Lago doesn't have a golf course.

Gotta' love the Trump Cult. They literally don't know what they're talking about but they never shut up.

Learnin' stuff every day. I confess I did not know MaL didn't have a golf course. I thought it was a country club (which usually has golf courses). I did know that it didn't have a marina, but because it is being affected by king tides (because of climate change Trump says isn't real), I thought it had access to a waterfront.

Of course, I'm not making any claims about valuation or amenities.

If I recall from a few months ago, Trump is the one who did some finagling to have it a club-only property, and many of the other "features" albaby has mentioned, in order to reduce/avoid taxes. And now he has a white elephant on his hands that probably no one would want (e.g. I wouldn't want a large property that I couldn't subdivide or expand or change the use of). I find that amusing.

We're going to disagree here. Land is valued separately for a reason, which is why I showed you the vacant lot literally down the road. Land is the starting point for what someone plans to do with the lot. In the case of MaL and the other place down the A1A they're in similar geographic and economic zones so the land values should be similar.

As a general matter, yes - but not when you have restrictions on the property. Having more land typically makes a property more useful - especially for property that can be redeveloped and subdivided. Six acres is often twice as good as three acres, because usually you can simply develop two of whatever you would do on the three acres. More land gives you more options.

But Mar-a-Lago isn't like that. It's completely fixed. There's the main mansion, and it can't be significantly altered. Trump tried back in the 1990's - he wanted to tear it down and build houses, and the City refused to let him. The ability to have a private club was a concession, because keeping up a 66K historic mansion was a money pit - but they limited the number of memberships, and the income stream from that is basically not going to be much more than the cost of upkeep and operations.

So if you look at the Mar-a-Lago property, nearly all of it is just empty green area and parking. You can't do anything with that extra land. The house is setback seven hundred feet from the waterfront, but you can't build any additional structures there because you'll wreck the views. That's more than half the property.

https://imageio.forbes.com/blogs-images/chasewitho...

If you scraped Mar-a-Lago, you might get closer to $75 million for the raw land. A billionaire could come in, build-to-suit an actual residential compound (right-sized main house of maybe a dozen bedrooms, several guest houses and accessory structures) with everything in the right places. But being stuck with having to preserve the Mar-a-Lago building itself? I doubt you'd get all that much more than the $37 million which is the current valuation.

I confess I did not know MaL didn't have a golf course. I thought it was a country club (which usually has golf courses). I did know that it didn't have a marina, but because it is being affected by king tides (because of climate change Trump says isn't real), I thought it had access to a waterfront.

There's nuance, which is why I think you and Dope might be confused.

Membership in Mar-a-Lago brings automatic membership at Trump International. There's shuttles that take you from the MaL property to the golf course. So the club of Mar-a-Lago brings along with it access to golf facilities, but they're not part of the property.

MaL is waterfront property. But it doesn't have a marina - they don't have boat slips, and it appears that they haven't even improved the seawall to allow for lateral dockage. They might not be able to get one, either. I do boat slips from time to time as a development lawyer, and while the Florida Administrative Code provides a general permit for one slip per single-family home on the water (meaning you get it automatically if you abide by the criteria), MaL isn't a single-family home. It's a private club, and thus is probably treated as a commercial use by the Board of Trustees of the Internal Improvement Trust Fund (the government agency which owns all the submerged bottom under Florida waters). Commercial uses can't travel under the residential category.

If I recall from a few months ago, Trump is the one who did some finagling to have it a club-only property, and many of the other "features" albaby has mentioned, in order to reduce/avoid taxes.

Worse, for the purposes of this conversation. He bought the property, but soon realized that it was a White Elephant. It was costing him a fortune in upkeep, and who really needs a house with 65 bedrooms? He asked Palm Beach to let him tear it down and subdivide, and they told him he couldn't. When he pled poverty and that the mansion would fall apart because it cost too much to maintain, they allowed the 'private club' as a compromise - that way there would be some revenue to cover the cost of keeping up the house. But the downside was that he had to actually maintain the mansion as-is and the number of memberships was capped (500 IIRC), so while it would generate some revenue it wouldn't be a full-scale commercial intense use in the residential neighborhood.

So it's not a great property, especially now. Now that it's become not only Trump's own "Little White House," but the location of some significant historical events itself, MaL is a shoe-in to head onto the National Register of Historic Places. Which means it's going to be frozen in amber for all time. Even the modest changes that might have been possible to make it more practical to a non-Trump owner are now going to be off the table.

And DeSantis can't (or wouldn't) do anything about this? At least early on, he was on-board with Trump (or appeared to be). You would think he would push through some bill that would allow the state of FL to relax the rules for Trump. I didn't know about the consideration for the National Register. If that happens, then even DeSantis can't do anything about it. Which will be doubly-amusing.

Out of curiosity...what's so special about that mansion? Did someone famous own it before?

And DeSantis can't (or wouldn't) do anything about this? At least early on, he was on-board with Trump (or appeared to be). You would think he would push through some bill that would allow the state of FL to relax the rules for Trump.

My understanding is that these restrictions are in part the creation of a private agreement/deed restriction between Trump (or whatever entity actually owns MaL) and the City. The State can't disturb those. Partially they're the result of the City's exercise of its historic preservation powers, but those are delegated down to the cities and counties from the state under our general Home Rule statute. Since the state doesn't make the call, there really isn't a mechanism for them to authorize a one-off exception.

There have been various small proposals to pre-empt local government historic regulation in very limited circumstances - usually to require local governments to allow coastal developments to harden their homes against sea-level rise or hurricane dangers. There was a bill in the last session to allow owners to disregard local historic designations if their home was seaward of the Coastal Construction Control Line - a line of regulation that ensures development standards to resist storm surge and whatnot. I don't recall whether it passed or not, but it wouldn't affect MaL.

Out of curiosity...what's so special about that mansion? Did someone famous own it before?

It was owned by Marjorie Post - who owned General Foods and was at one time the wealthiest woman in the U.S. - and E.F. Hutton (yes, that E.F. Hutton). The mansion was built in the 1920's, which makes it pretty old by Florida standards - and it was designed by a very prominent local architect. Those two factors make it historic, by our lights.

Post donated it to the National Park service upon her death. The National Park service gave it back to her foundation after a while, because it was just too expensive and difficult to maintain. Trump bought it four years later to be his residence, only to switch gears and try to develop the land instead. Palm Beach was having none of that, given the history of the property, so we find ourselves in the present situation.

An astonishing conclusion given all that is known about this corrupt wannabe dictator.

It's at all astonishing that it is the perception of USian white nationalists.

If one is not a white nationalist , or more specifically, a white christian nationalist.....if one is a person of color who may be interned for not being a white person, one's mileage may vary.

Imagine being traffic stopped because you look like you may be from Asia/Africa/Latin America.... or maternity aged woman driving toward the state line of a pro-choice state...or being hassled by those 'fine people' on the other side of the line for the same reason.

A whole new age of profiling

Boca Raton...20 times the size of Mar a lago

What's wrong with you.... Don't be pestering Dope1 with details.

Mar-a-Lago doesn't have a golf course.
Then what's this

It's a flat noisy non-scenic golf course about 5 miles east of MAL, crammed between the 89, 809 and the runways of Palm Beach Intl Airport.

It sure as hell ain't Mauna Kea or Pebble Beach. I've played nicer muni golf courses.

Give Boca Raton to the Palestinians.

Call it a day.

All evidence to the contrary,"I think Trump's policies will lead our country to a more secure and prosperous future

A nation led by science denying, fraudulent, religious bigots, conspiracy theorists... secure for whom? prosperous for whom?

I can answer your question- a more prosperous future for Trump, that's who! Just look at the cultist replies in this thread. His supporters are a who's who of marks for grifters like My Pillow Guy, the Qanon perpetrators, Rudy Guiliani, Sydney Powell and Trump himself. It's a bright future indeed for all the grifters if the con man gets elected again!

I can answer your question- a more prosperous future for Trump, that's who! Just look at the cultist replies in this thread. His supporters are a who's who of marks for grifters like My Pillow Guy, the Qanon perpetrators, Rudy Guiliani, Sydney Powell and Trump himself. It's a bright future indeed for all the grifters if the con man gets elected again!

Exactly. Exactly. And let's add those political leaders abroad who the Orange-ade man so admires......Putin, Orban, Erdogan, etc etc etc.

I can answer your question

If I want to respond should I do so on this board or the Atheist board?

I would add to your list 'prosperity preachers' and assorted AR15 religious cults.

I mean, where the discussion is the political impact of an amoral narcissist and his cult of white christian nationalist, a speaker whose ultimate guide is his interpretation of a fictitious book on spirits....

...do we need, perhaps, yet another board for posts that include politics, religious charlatans...

.. if the post concerns christians backing politicians who demonize atheists and humanists... which board?

we are witnessing the birth of an oligarchy a la Russia . Loyalty and fealty only are rewarded.

With a brief update on this earlier thread, Trump apparently posted further criticism of the NY fraud case proceedings on his social media site - and now claims that Mar-a-Lago is worth between $900 million and $1.8 billion:

"The only FRAUD in the Peekaboo James case, our failed and disgusting New York State Attorney General, was her convincing 'Judge' Arthur Engoron to put a value on Mar-a-Lago, in Palm Beach, Florida, of just $18,000,000, when it is worth 50 to 100 times that amount,""The only FRAUD in the Peekaboo James case, our failed and disgusting New York State Attorney General, was her convincing 'Judge' Arthur Engoron to put a value on Mar-a-Lago, in Palm Beach, Florida, of just $18,000,000, when it is worth 50 to 100 times that amount,"

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-says-disgus...

For a property that can only be used as either a single family home or a private club (with no golf course or beach) capped at 500 members.

The only FRAUD in the Peekaboo James case, our failed and disgusting New York State Attorney General, was her convincing 'Judge' Arthur Engoron to put a value on Mar-a-Lago, in Palm Beach, Florida, of just $18,000,000, when it is worth 50 to 100 times that amount,"

Well, taking the middle, 75x that amount would make it worth $1.35 billion. Should be easy enough to get a bond for $500 million using it as collateral, no? And I’m sure TFG knows how to value his properties correctly, so

What’s what? He doesn’t? That’s how he got into the position of having to find a bond for $500 million in the first place?

You don’t say.

albaby1 (quoting Fox "News"): "The only FRAUD in the Peekaboo James case, our failed and disgusting New York State Attorney General, was her convincing 'Judge' Arthur Engoron to put a value on Mar-a-Lago, in Palm Beach, Florida, of just $18,000,000, when it is worth 50 to 100 times that amount."

Neither Letitia James nor Judge Engoron had anything do do with assessing the value of Mar-a-Lago at $18,000,000. The property appraiser in Palm Beach County, where the estate is located, assessed the property and determined its value: $18,000,000. At a later assessment, the value was set at $28,000,000. Engoron simply cited the valuations as determined by the Palm Beach County assessor during the trial.

Those valuations were limited by Mar-a-Lago’s deed-restriction as a private club. Unlike a private home, the property’s value is determined by the amount of income it generates as a club.

Trump's own company agreed with the valuations. "The Petitioner agrees with the determination of the property appraiser or tax collector," a real estate broker representing Mar-a-Lago acknowledged at the time.


https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2023/oct/06/...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-mar-a-lago-1-8-...

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