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Halls of Shrewd'm / US Policy
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Author: onepoorguy   😊 😞
Number: of 55834 
Subject: Putin softening?
Date: 08/17/2025 2:01 PM
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I'll need to read more about it. Presently, I am highly skeptical because of Putin's history. But, if he's willing to accept Ukraine being able to invoke Article 5 without actual NATO membership (as an aside, what's the difference then?), that would be an indication that what many on this board have been saying is true. Putin can't continue to prosecute this war, and is starting to feel pain. It is estimated that he will have reactivated or salvaged pretty much their entire stores by the end of this year. Then he'll have to build new from then on. I know I said several months ago that if Ukraine held out until the end of the year, Putin would have some painful choices to make. It may already be starting.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/us-envoy-says-...

“It is important that America agrees to work with Europe to provide security guarantees for Ukraine,” he said, “But there are no details how it will work, and what America’s role will be, Europe’s role will be and what the EU can do, and this is our main task, we need security to work in practice like Article 5 of NATO, and we consider EU accession to be part of the security guarantees,” he [Zelenskyy] said.
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Author: UpNorthJoe   😊 😞
Number: of 55834 
Subject: Re: Putin softening?
Date: 08/17/2025 4:09 PM
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"I'll need to read more about it. Presently, I am highly skeptical because of Putin's history"

Color me skeptical to the nth degree, of any agreement that Putin and/or Trump align
on. But we don't need to tell that to Zelensky and Ukraine, they've been living with
the backstabbing for years now. Lol ( and it's not funny ), Russia and America agreed to
guarantee Ukraine security. Russia, and America, lied thru their teeth on those promises.

Ukraine should have kept their nukes.


https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/ukraine-nuc...

"At the time of Ukraine’s independence from the Soviet Union in 1991, Ukraine held the third largest nuclear arsenal in the world, including an estimated 1,900 strategic warheads, 176 intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs), and 44 strategic bombers. By 1996, Ukraine had returned all of its nuclear warheads to Russia in exchange for economic aid and security assurances, and in December 1994, Ukraine became a non-nuclear weapon state-party to the 1968 nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty (NPT)"
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Author: wzambon 🐝 HONORARY
SHREWD
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Number: of 55834 
Subject: Re: Putin softening?
Date: 08/17/2025 4:18 PM
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It is important that America agrees to work with Europe to provide security guarantees for Ukraine,” he said, “But there are no details how it will work, and what America’s role will be, Europe’s role will be and what the EU can do, and this is our main task, we need security to work in practice like Article 5 of NATO, and we consider EU accession to be part of the security guarantees,” he [Zelenskyy] said.

Let’s recall the deal that Chamberlains signed off on with Herr Ribbentrop that carved off a piece of Czechoslovakia, sending Chamberlain home to declare “peace in our time”.

The piece of Czechoslovakia ceded to Germany, the Sudetenland, which Germany claimed because of its “German” population, most significantly included natural, mountainous obstacles to invasion, as well as the militarized defense line that had been fortified by Czechoslovakia to defend against a German invasion.

That piece ceded, Germany had only to take a stroll into the remainder of Czechoslovakia.

The “deal” that Trump (Putin) is proposing, cedes Luhansk and Donetsk, only partially occupied by Russia, and most significantly, the fortified strongpoints, trenches and natural barriers that Ukraine has used so successfully to defend itself and wear down the Russian war machine.

Interestingly, Russia is using the same rationale that was used by Hitler to justify Russian annexation of the Sudetenland- the large number of ethnic Russians who live there.

Chamberlain signed the deal because Hitler promised he wouldn’t go further. Within half a year, Hitler occupied the rest of Czechoslovakia.

Peace in their time! Great Britain and France pledged themselves as guarantors of the deal.

Methinks tomorrow’s meeting between Trump and Zelensky, along with principal NATO/EU leaders supporting Zelensky should be quite interesting.

If I was Zelensky, I wouldn’t sign the deal at all, but if circumstances forced me to sign it, it would only be with the provisions that each major NATO power put a division of troops on or near the newly established border between Ukraine and Russia, and that the deal would take place only after those troops were in place.

The parallels with Munich are striking. The tragedy is that Trump is incapable of seeing those parallels and appears poised to repeat them.


I’d also make sure that defensive line was destroyed before abandoning it.

We’ll see.

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Author: ges 🐝  😊 😞
Number: of 55834 
Subject: Re: Putin softening?
Date: 08/17/2025 5:05 PM
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The tragedy is that Trump is incapable of seeing those parallels and appears poised to repeat them.

For a man who knows more about everything than anybody, it sure seems like Trump is a lazy ignoramus who knows little about history.
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Author: PucksFool   😊 😞
Number: of 55834 
Subject: Re: Putin softening?
Date: 08/17/2025 7:33 PM
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Trump is desperate for the Nobel Peace In Our Time Prize.
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