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Biden has a moratorium on the death penalty. To stop the bloodthirsty convict, he commuted several inmate sentences to life without parole. (Which, IMO, is actually worse... in that situation, just kill me and get it over with.)

The convict is now saying he wants his doj to reverse those. Ianal, but I'm pretty sure that isn't possible. Once commuted, it's a done deal.

The convict should observe his first impulse, and then say the opposite, because his first impulse almost always is illegal and/or impossible.

You sent me off to DuckDuckGo.

It appears that a Presidential pardon can be refused but a commutation cannot be.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/politics/government/can-...

Maybe a lawyer will chime in.

Why didn’t Biden commute all of them, if this is such a strong principle of his?

Why didn’t Biden commute all of them, if this is such a strong principle of his?

On accounta because...

But the remaining three on death row whose sentences are untouched are: Robert Bowers, convicted for the mass shooting at the Tree of Life Synagogue; Dylann Roof, convicted of the shooting at the Mother Emanuel AME Church; and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, convicted for the Boston Marathon bombing.

I used to be in favor of the death penalty, but no more. Primarily because mistakes do happen, but there is no do-over with capital punishment.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/antydiluvian/3669973...

I've seen this marker in person. It's dark humor...

I'm not in favor either. I once set up a three person review to eliminate mistakes - with two Judges and a forensic expert. Then watched and read for a year. I just didn't realize how much prosecutorial misconduct there was - more than I ever thought, should be rare, but it isn't. So reluctantly I gave up the death penalty.

Biden has a moratorium on the death penalty.

Biden is mixing his personal faith into his executive actions, which I thought was Republican territory.
All these people were convicted of killing others. They should be eliminated so the rest of us can be safer. What is the point in spending taxpayer money to keep them healthy for 50 more years?

Even people that the Innocence Project gets off the death row are often free because of some point of law, not because they didn't do the crime. I understand why the society works that way, laws are the best approximation we have for true justice. Bit in Biden's case there was not even a point of law. He is letting the Pope rule America.

Biden is mixing his personal faith into his executive actions

Biden has been a solid voiced for the pro-choice movement, a conflict with his personal faith.

What is the basis for your belief his commutation of death penalties is based in the RC dogma?

They should be eliminated so the rest of us can be safer. What is the point in spending taxpayer money to keep them healthy for 50 more years?

Three things.

1) Executing someone ends up costing more than incarcerating them for life due to all the appeals.

2) The death penalty has never been shown to be an effective deterrent.

3) Innocent people get executed.

There are evil people I wish dead, but the death penalty should be abolished.

#3 is the big one for me.

If new evidence come to light, you can release someone from prison. You can't release them from death.

My gut reaction is "kill 'em". But my considered reaction is "what if we're wrong".

What is the basis for your belief his commutation of death penalties is based in the RC dogma?

Here's Biden's statements:

SNIP Make no mistake: I condemn these murderers, grieve for the victims of their despicable acts, and ache for all the families who have suffered unimaginable and irreparable loss.

But guided by my conscience and my experience as a public defender, chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Vice President, and now President, I am more convinced than ever that we must stop the use of the death penalty at the federal level. In good conscience, I cannot stand back and let a new administration resume executions that I halted. SNIP

And this is a case that resonates with many people, including me, where it is highly likely that we executed an innocent man:

SNIP Cameron Todd Willingham was executed in Texas in 2004 for allegedly setting a fire that killed his three young daughters 13 years earlier. He always claimed his innocence, and the arson investigation used to convict him was questioned by leading experts before Willingham was executed. Since 2004, further evidence in the case has led to the inescapable conclusion that Willingham did not set the fire for which he was executed.The Texas Forensic Science Commission issued its report on the convictions of Cameron Todd Willingham and Ernest Willis on April 15, 2011 recommending more education and training for fire investigators and implementing procedures to review old cases (the commission issued an addendum to the report on October 28, 2011). SNIP

https://innocenceproject.org/cameron-todd-willingh...

Now that was a Texas state case, and Biden is talking Federal law, and federal cases are generally handled better than state cases, but we can get it wrong. I don't see anything that speaks to Biden's faith being the determiner in these actions.

Also:

SNIP In almost half of the cases that the Innocence Project takes on, the clients' guilt is reconfirmed by DNA testing. Of all the cases taken on by the Innocence Project so far, about 43% of clients were proven innocent, 42% were confirmed guilty, and evidence was inconclusive and not probative in 15% of cases SNIP

Knightof3 says this:
Even people that the Innocence Project gets off the death row are often free because of some point of law, not because they didn't do the crime.

Knight, these people were exonerated -

Black's Law
Exonerate
Definition and Citations:

To lift, remove the stain of being called out for blame, liability, or punishment. It is more that just freeing an accused person of the responsibility for a criminal or otherwise illegal or wrongful act. It is publicly stating that this accused should never have been accused in the first place. Refer to acquit and exculpate.

So, no, they weren't freed because of some point of law, and it was publicly declared by an agent of the state that they didn't do the crime.

That is all though.

http://archive.today/2024.12.23-235344/https://www...
The decision sparked relief and gratitude not only for the men of federal death row, but also for members of the public who had urged Biden to commute. Donnie Oliviero, a police officer from Columbus, Ohio, whose partner had been killed by Daryl Lawrence, one of the men whose sentence was commuted by Biden, said in a statement provided after the fact that “putting to death the person who killed my police partner and best friend would have brought me no peace. The President has done what is right here, and what is consistent with the faith he and I share. Thank you, Mr. President.” Gary Mohr, the former director of the Ohio Department of Corrections, added that he was “so grateful to President Biden for taking this step to ensure no federal correctional professionals will face the harm of participating in executions for the foreseeable future.” For these men, as well as scores of others both on the row and off, Biden has brought about a fraction of peace on Earth, a measure of mercy mild—and a welcome hallelujah.

"My gut reaction is "kill 'em". But my considered reaction is "what if we're wrong"." - 1Poorguy

That is because you are intelligent and thinking enough to recognize that there is often nuance in the world and that you (and the world in general) can often be wrong.

I absolutely guarantee that people who are pro death penalty don't actually think about it. To them it is a black and white issue. The people on death row were convicted of a horrible crime so they are terrible people deserving of death. Simple. Binary. Black and white. It doesn't even occur to them that the justice system is far from perfect and innocent people can get caught up in it. Anyone who takes a second, looks at the data and sees that the justice system is often imperfect and regularly biased against people who are easier to falsely convict of death penalty crimes (poor, mentally ill, uneducated, often minorities) would be against the death penalty. How could they not?

"Even people that the Innocence Project gets off the death row are often free because of some point of law, not because they didn't do the crime."

That is simply not true. At all. Often the people freed might be guilty of other, lessor crimes (like drugs or such), but the Innocence Project doesn't get people convicted of death penalty crimes freed on technicalities of law. That is not how they operate.

You may tell yourself that because it lessens the guilt associated with knowing that innocent people have been put to death in the justice system you support, but it isn't a true statement at all. It is just something you tell yourself in order to make yourself feel better about it and not have to think about it.

I would bet a decent amount of money that you cannot point to one person the Innocence Project has gotten freed on "some point of law" that was actually, demonstrably guilty of the crime they were convicted of.

Personally, I wonder about the executioner. As a society, do we really want to encourage a person to be an executioner?

Aussi

What is the basis for your belief his commutation of death penalties is based in the RC dogma?

Here's Biden's statements:

SNIP Make no mistake: I condemn these murderers, grieve for the victims of their despicable acts, and ache for all the families who have suffered unimaginable and irreparable loss. But guided by my conscience and my experience as a public defender,

I was baptised and raised Catholic. My conscience also would bother me if I ordered the execution of an innocent person. That's not 'conscience' based in RC dogma. It's based in the knowledge that there's prosecutorial malfeasance causing wrongful verdicts.

There are evil people I wish dead, but the death penalty should be abolished.

“Frodo: 'It's a pity Bilbo didn't kill Gollum when he had the chance.
'Gandalf: 'Pity? It's a pity that stayed Bilbo's hand. Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends. - J. R. R. Tolkien

I was baptised and raised Catholic. My conscience also would bother me if I ordered the execution of an innocent person. That's not 'conscience' based in RC dogma. It's based in the knowledge that there's prosecutorial malfeasance causing wrongful verdicts.

Some are due to malfeasance, not all, we have advances in forensic science too. In the case of Todd Willingham he was put to death on the basis of old wive's tails passed down from one generation of firefighters to another. A forensic scientist ran experiments on the evidence that convicted Todd, and none of it was true, it was all rubbish. So he bundled it up and sent it to the committee reviewing Todd's case and they didn't even look at it. They said by that point all they are doing is crossing all the Ts and dotting all the Is, not reviewing things to exonerate someone.

So they had to take a good look at what they were doing - and it took time to break down the barriers to reviewing what they were doing. The state didn't want to admit they put an innocent man to death and they had a chance not to and because of their attitudes didn't review it. They had evidence he was innocent in their hands.

That's the way we are.

In my case I was trying to put together a relatively foolproof review so that we could execute people with confidence, and I had to admit we couldn't due to prosecutorial misconduct. How would we know that there are witnesses that stated he was never there that the prosecution withheld? How would we know that there were people who corroborated his alibi that were not interviewed? Most of what the innocence projects exonerations are based on DNA that the convicted persons blood doesn't match the DNA of the perpetrator at the scene. But it amazed me that prosecutors would risk their legal license to get a conviction. Watch the papers - it happens more often than I cared to think it would.

As a society, do we really want to encourage a person to be an executioner?

ESPECIALLY when that executioner is also a physician.

1) Executing someone ends up costing more than incarcerating them for life due to all the appeals.

True. That’s why there should be as swift a resolution as is possible, done with the “absolute confidence” not the “reasonable doubt” standard. Plus two mandatory appeals to judicial panels, not repeated and prolonged jury trials. I also suggest taking plea bargaining away for anyone involved in a mass murder (i.e. more than one person).

2) The death penalty has never been shown to be an effective deterrent.

Sure it has. It stops murderers from killing someone again, either in prison or after escaping or being paroled. All of those things have happened repeatedly; see my link upthread.

3) Innocent people get executed.

Innocent people get murdered first. And while what you say is undeniably true, we get people killed all the time in the name of law enforcement, or war, or forcing them to do dangerous things to survive, or even reality television. That last one is a joke, although it is also true.

I absolutely guarantee that people who are pro death penalty don't actually think about it

Well, your absolute guarantee is wrong. I have thought about quite a lot, and come down on the side of being pro-death penalty.

The very rare “wrong” (and yes, it is inevitable) is balanced by the societal satisfaction/retribution/justice of getting rid of Ted Bundy and similar, terrorists like Timothy McVeigh and similar, and family annihilators like John List and other egregious murderers rather than have them hang around painting pictures and enjoying another 40 years of life on the taxpayers dime.

As for “who will do it”, well, I’d offer first opportunity to the victim families, but if they decline I’m sure there would be a long line of volunteers for the task.

It doesn’t even occur to them that the justice system is far from perfect anhd innocent people can get caught up in it

Sure it does. Stop pretending you know what the pro-penalty crowd thinks. You’re setting up strawmen and then heroically knocking them down. You’re simply wrong, “absolute guarantee” or not.

Well, your absolute guarantee is wrong. I have thought about quite a lot, and come down on the side of being pro-death penalty.

The spectacle of an execution should help, but what it seems to help is the illusion that justice prevails. But most of us who live and attempt to understand the world around us realize that it is likely justice doesn't prevail in all cases, and that a substantial number of murderers aren't caught. We want to think they are caught, they aren't. And then we convict innocent people.

The murder clearance rate in the US is around 60%. So 40% aren't cleared. In the Philippines less than 20% are cleared, so more than 80% aren't solved or cleared. We do make nice TV shows about murder though.

We like our illusions.

The very rare “wrong” (and yes, it is inevitable) is balanced by the societal satisfaction/retribution/justice of getting rid of Ted Bundy and similar, terrorists like Timothy McVeigh and similar, and family annihilators like John List and other egregious murderers rather than have them hang around painting pictures and enjoying another 40 years of life on the taxpayers dime.

When I was younger, I was more in line with your thoughts.

But as I get older, the thought of accepting the killing an innocent “wrong” person in the name of societal satisfaction/retribution/justice haunts me more and more. The Gandalf (yes, I know he’s fictional) quote earlier in the thread has stuck with me for decades.

Also (maybe I’ve watched Shawshank too many times), prison doesn’t look like a very pleasant place to “enjoy” oneself. I do pencil sketches but I’m not sure they’d let me do that in prison. Anyone familiar with John Wick knows he can kill multiple people with a pencil. And forget playing my guitar as I could hang myself with the strings (Dirty Dozen). I guess I could read a lot more, but no occasional cigar or glass of cognac or dozens of other activities that make life worth living.

It was fun for about 10 minutes.

When you feel more like a man working outside with a cold bottle of suds in your hands.

That 10 minutes where you and the convicts get to drink cold Bohemia style beer, and at that same time the colossal prick even manages to sound magnanimous.


:) Anything familiar?

There are evil people I wish dead,

I prefer the way of putting it that has been attributed to Mark Twain.

I have never wished the death of any man. But I have read a number of obituaries with some satisfaction.

--Peter

Sure it has. It stops murderers from killing someone again

So does life in prison without possibility of parole. But you have a point.

Innocent people get murdered first. And while what you say is undeniably true, we get people killed all the time in the name of law enforcement, or war, or forcing them to do dangerous things to survive

I don't think that makes executing innocent people OK.

That’s why there should be as swift a resolution as is possible

And good luck with that.

I still maintain that life in prison without possibility of parole should replace the death penalty.

"rather than have them hang around painting pictures and enjoying another 40 years of life on the taxpayers dime."

I rather think the certainty of executing an innocent person more than outweighs any outrage at the continued existence of a known murder. The justice system is imperfect, it is a human endeavor. Rapid judgement and execution of said judgement is not consistent with my view of a civilized society.

As long as vengeance is the real underpinning motive for capital punishment, justice is not served.

The very rare “wrong” (and yes, it is inevitable) is balanced by the societal satisfaction/retribution/justice of getting rid of Ted Bundy and similar, terrorists like Timothy McVeigh and similar, and family annihilators like John List and other egregious murderers rather than have them hang around painting pictures and enjoying another 40 years of life on the taxpayers dime. - Goofy

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I have no problem with the death penalty but the process takes far too long, and at great expense to taxpayers and great angst for victims families. That said, I could get behind a "life without parole" outcome if that sentence met certain criteria. Someone suggested a well defined process with two automatic appeals and perhaps some mental exams. That seems reasonable as long as they are complete and conclusions drawn within two years of sentencing.

If no relief from your appeals, then its off to NDE Prison for you. What is NDE Prison? It Near Death Experience prison, a specialized prison housing only those so sentenced. The idea is you will not be executed but your experience will be as death like as possible while you wait.

Day in the life: 8x10 cell, concrete commode, sink, bed slab. 23 hours in, eat in your cell, one hour out by yourself to the exercise yard every day. One day a week use that day for your shower. No visitors except for your legal counsel. That includes your family, because you are effectively dead. Set in your cell the rest of the time, no books, no hobby supplies, no information from the outside world, go crazy if you must, you are gone from our society.

This life without parole sentence sounds way worse than death to me, so I can get behind the NDE prison movement plus it would make the process more predictable and efficient and with more consistent outcomes. Fun to speculate isn't it.

" Stop pretending you know what the pro-penalty crowd thinks. You’re setting up strawmen and then heroically knocking them down. You’re simply wrong, “absolute guarantee” or not."

Nope. I was spot on. You demonstrated my point for me. You haven't really thought about it. Or you have thought about it in the same way Aaron Rodgers did his vaccine research.

Put another way, it doesn't have to be inevitable that innocent people are put to death. Think about why.

It is fun to speculate Mike, I enjoy Sci Fi romps about future off beat societies. Riddick. We'll Vin Diesel it. But, alas the Constitution prohibits cruel and unusual punishment. " Set in your cell the rest of the time, no books, no hobby supplies, no information from the outside world, go crazy if you must, you are gone from our society," sounds a a bit on the cruel side.

It is fun to speculate Mike, I enjoy Sci Fi romps about future off beat societies. Riddick. We'll Vin Diesel it. But, alas the Constitution prohibits cruel and unusual punishment. " Set in your cell the rest of the time, no books, no hobby supplies, no information from the outside world, go crazy if you must, you are gone from our society," sounds a a bit on the cruel side. - Lambo

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No where near as cruel as lighting a stranger on fire while they were sleeping.

So with you, we learn there is more to it than just eliminating the death penalty. Are we back to having them hang around painting pictures and enjoying another 40 years of life on the taxpayers dime. Maybe a nice pickle ball court and movie night every Friday.

How do you think a heinous murderer should serve "Life without parole". Since the alternative we are talking about was death, just how nice should the perpetrators wretched life be?

I have young kids.

If on occasion we're taking a walk and the question comes "why is that man's body hanging from that tree" - I have zero problem with it, and zero problem saying "that's what we do, to people who hurt other people".

But alas, in America, the innocent seem to want to live in fear while the crooks are brazen.


Too bad we dont go counterculture and flip the script.

I rather think the certainty of executing an innocent person more than outweighs any outrage at the continued existence of a known murder. The justice system is imperfect, it is a human endeavor. Rapid judgement and execution of said judgement is not consistent with my view of a civilized society.

If I take this to the logical extreme, then we should not put anyone in jail because we might incarcerate innocent people too (indeed, we have done so many times because of the low standard of “reasonable doubt”). We should stop jailing people!

People think that the murderers will sit around and contemplate their evil deeds and somehow repent - I assure you it isn’t like that at all. (For the record, in prisons it’s Murderers who have the highest status. At the bottom of the scale are Pedophiles.)

As long as vengeance is the real underpinning motive for capital punishment justic is not served.

Why not? Society has a vested interest in vengeance (and it’s not the ONLY motive), just as people do. We require financial criminals to make restitution (when possible), but with murder it’s not possible. Why some arbitrary rule that says “You can’t pay for an equal crime” for only this category?

Nope. I was spot on. You demonstrated my point for me. You haven't really thought about it. Or you have thought about it in the same way Aaron Rodgers did his vaccine research.

Because I disagree with you? Here’s a little something you don’t know about me:

In college I was on the debate team (big surprise, eh?) We won almost every match; one we lost was about the Death Penalty. Our preparation for it was to visit Death Row inmates at Walpole State Prison in Massachusetts (near my school) and talk with murderers for several hours over a meal and in other settings.

Then, a week later, we debated. Our side was “Pro”, and the other team was … Death Row convicts from Walpole State Prison, which I point out is one of the worst places you want to be around there. We lost that debate; the inmates were the judges, and so we were hardly surprised by the vote. But afterwards we all sat around at a reception drinking Cokes and having cookies, and a splendid time was had by all.

I have sat with them, I have observed their life circumstances, I have talked with over a dozen of them. They were not happy to be in prison, obviously, but there was not the slightest shred of remorse except that they had been caught. They had their groups (and gangs), much as you see in Shawshank, and while it is not a life you or I would like they seemed relatively content, even happy with the activities and comraderie. I’m sure there are much worse places, Attica comes to mind, and I don’t advocate all prisons end up so, but overall, yeah, it’s a decent life for which they DO NOT ATONE.


And if they escape, or are paroled, they will almost immediately revert back to a pathological state and MORE INNOCENT PEOPLE will be dead. I do not grieve for them any more than a cockroach I step on on my bathroom floor. They have perpetrated the most vile offense imagineable, and they have therefore forfeit the right to life.

Yeah, I have thought about it quite a lot, thanks.

No where near as cruel as lighting a stranger on fire while they were sleeping.

So with you, we learn there is more to it than just eliminating the death penalty. Are we back to having them hang around painting pictures and enjoying another 40 years of life on the taxpayers dime. Maybe a nice pickle ball court and movie night every Friday.

It doesn't sound like you've ever read or talked to someone who has been locked up. Now there are some Federal prisons that are seemingly nice places with tennis courts. I don't think you are worried about those - generally non violent crimes. The violent crime prisons are already full of prisoners classified as having Anti Social Personality Disorder and overcrowded. Nothing is pleasant. You can weave that in your partisan way, can't stop you. But the conversation ends if you do because there isn't any reason to discuss prison with anyone bent on partisan rhetoric.

Interesting conversation.
Here's some additional info some may find enlightening:
73% of all federal death penalty cases authorized for prosecution involved defendants of color.
Defendants are nearly four times more likely to receive a death sentence if they are Black compared to white defendants.
Cases involving white victims are 3.7 times more likely to result in a death sentence than those with Black victims.
In the state of Georgia, people convicted of killing white victims are 17 times more likely to be executed than those convicted of killing Black victims.
There is a strong connection between white racial hostility toward Black people and support for the death penalty.
In Harris County, Texas, 95% of the last 21 people sentenced to death were people of color.
22% of black defendants who kill white victims are sentenced to death.
3% of white defendants who kill black victims are sentenced to death.

"Even under the most sophisticated death penalty statutes, race continues to play a major role in determining who shall live and who shall die.
Perhaps it should not be surprising that the biases and prejudices that infect society generally would influence the determination of who is sentenced to death." –Supreme Court Justice Harry Blackmun (1994)

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/human-r...

https://www.nacdl.org/Content/Race-and-the-Death-P...

https://eji.org/issues/death-penalty/

https://capitalpunishmentincontext.org/issues/race

Nothing is pleasant. You can weave that in your partisan way, can't stop you.

See my post upthread. I have spoken with them, perhaps a dozen. Some, at least, of these people have camaraderie. They have meals. The have a library full of books, and sometimes (group) TV. They have surety. Yes, they also have confinement, and sometimes hostility and occasional violence.

Clearly prison is an experience I’d rather not endure, but then I don’t do things which would be likely to make it so. That does not imply that it’s Dante’s Seventh Circle, either.

Before you go making these kinds of claims, perhaps you should talk with the people left behind in a murderer’s wake. I have, twice. Once in college, a quasi-roommate who spoke at length about it, indeed he was nearly tortured by it. Another time to a friend of my wife’s, in a far more abbreviated way. Their lives are forever changed, and not in a good way. No holiday goes by without regret. No wedding is attended. No phone calls. Nothing, ever. Shouldn’t that count, too?

Before you go making these kinds of claims, perhaps you should talk with the people left behind in a murderer’s wake. I have, twice. Once in college, a quasi-roommate who spoke at length about it, indeed he was nearly tortured by it. Another time to a friend of my wife’s, in a far more abbreviated way. Their lives are forever changed, and not in a good way. No holiday goes by without regret. No wedding is attended. No phone calls. Nothing, ever. Shouldn’t that count, too?

Since I wasn't talking to you, I was talking to Mike, why are you talking in such a condescending way to me? I'll tell you why. It's because you are an arrogant prick who needs to be told to go fuck off periodically, who need your crap? Especially this: Before you go making these kinds of claims, perhaps you should talk with the people left behind in a murderer’s wake. But first - FUCK RIGHT OFF GOOFYHOOFY! Yes - strip down, bend over, and kiss your ass.

So I've talked to former prisoners in both the US and the PI. The US has much better conditions in prison than the PI, generally. as the vary by location in both places. In the PI you have a good chance of sleeping on a concrete floor with another prisoners legs draped over you due to lack of room. You get used to the smell of body order after a few days and no longer notice it. Make sure you get your share of rice and you can trade fish for cigarettes if you smoke. Stay on the good side of PI prison folk, because they'll send 10 guys after you if you get uppity. In the US you'll likely have your own bunk and while the food is tasteless there's no lack of it. You still have to stay on folks good sides.

As for those left behind? The family unit is much tighter in the Philippines, the grandparents take the kids and the Mom goes and works, sending money home to the Grandparents. I dated quite a few women who were raised that way, the men tend not to talk about it. Either Dad was murdered or Dad was the murderer. In the USA the family units aren't tight and you could end up in a foster home, or adapted by a good Christian couple.

It's some kind of arrogance you got there that you decide to lecture people who you don't know about things they never said. FUCK OFF!

My opinion is that incarceration is about safeguarding the general population rather than exacting punishment. The length of incarceration is set secondary to the crime. Some criminals do repent, and some crimes are so egregious that society cannot accept repentance nor offer redemption.

The price for exacting a death penalty is the inevitable execution of innocents. While I can't deny the satisfaction and/or closure that loved ones are given, only a sentence of life without parole, as a maximum, reflects a society that has moved beyond beheadings and stoning. Dressing up an execution in technology is no less blood thirsty than what we see in societies we consider primitive. Blood thirst is blood thirst.

I am less concerned about a murderer's ultimate fate that what his execution does to us as participants. Execution does nothing to heal families of victims and nothing to improve our society. How we deal with criminals is a reflection on ourselves. Justice should be just.

Well, now I've blocked GuffyHuffy so I don't have to deal with that. Any other takers? Any one else want to be told where to go and blocked? Step right up as there are end of year specials. I can block twice - yes, buy one, take one. Three times blocked! Special arrogant white boy blocks are on sale right now. And yes, I can block you and send you a certificate that you have been diagnosed with Auntie's Special Personalities Disorders. On sale - 5 cents.

For the next tree days only. :)

OT: I just got an estimated bill from a Health Org for $28.40. I am going to go over and ask about it. Anyone care to hazard a quess as to what the explanation might be? I'm not supposed to have copays with Medicare as primary :) - I switched to a PPO so I could get my wife a decent choice of Docs, but still no copays.

Well, now I've blocked GuffyHuffy

Not going to join you on this.

Goofy is one of my favorite posters. We disagree on the topic of the death penalty but...oh well.

I am less concerned about a murderer's ultimate fate that what his execution does to us as participants. Execution does nothing to heal families of victims and nothing to improve our society. How we deal with criminals is a reflection on ourselves. Justice should be just.

Good sentiments. I recognize societies right to take a life, but advocate that we don't because we are bad at it, especially at the state level. I'd rather separate the person from society and keep them alive so if we did screw up, we can fess up and let then have what life reamins to them back. To me, giving that innocent person the chance at a remainder of life is worth not executing anyone.

Not going to join you on this.

He *WAS* one of my favorites too. Adios goofy. See ya next life.

Well, now I've blocked GuffyHuffy so I don't have to deal with that.

Oh boo hoo. Some random person on the internet is going to avoid me. How will I ever live with the crushing humiliation? And all because we disagree on something! I think I will nominate you for the Intolerant’s Intolerance Award for 2024. And so late in the year! Nice save, although there are still a few days left.

He *WAS* one of my favorites too. Adios goofy. See ya next life.

Well, I’ve always been a trend setter. Glad to see my streak is alive.

I'd rather separate the person from society and keep them alive so if we did screw up, we can fess up and let then have what life reamins to them back.

The price for which is keeping thousands of murderers alive so they can kill prison guards, tie up the courts, occasionally escape and kill again, and pal around with their buddies and fellow gang members for 30 years. Not my vision, I just recommend making the process more protective and yet swifter. Feel free to disagree. (Oh wait…)

I am less concerned about a murderer's ultimate fate that what his execution does to us as participants. Execution does nothing to heal families of victims

You should talk to some of them. Some are against the death penalty, but some are in favor, and in deed express satisfaction when it’s done. Some actually attend the execution for exactly that reason.

reflects a society that has moved beyond beheadings and stoning

Well we don’t cut off people’s hands for stealing a loaf of bread anymore, so that’s progress, I guess.

I'm not supposed to have copays with Medicare as primary :) - Lambo

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Pure Medicare has co-pays. That is why people take out so-called Medi-gap polciies from a third party like BCBS, to pay some or all of the deductibles and copays imposed by Medicare. Medicare Advantage has its own traps and pitfalls...

Pure Medicare has co-pays. That is why people take out so-called Medi-gap polciies from a third party like BCBS, to pay some or all of the deductibles and copays imposed by Medicare.

Yes. But I have a brochure from BCBS that says if I'm on Standard or Basic (PPO) that I don't have copays except for drugs, FEPBlue will cover them. The billing dept from the health group. Normally I get these EOBs (Explanation of Benefits) that show what I might be liable for from Medicare and from BCBS, that always net to zero. In spite of all the effort I went through to understand my healthcare I still am waiting for the shoe to drop where I find out that I amde a huge mistake and cannot afford to have an illness for a year. :)

I'll have to ask them if this is medigap, I don't know. I had no idea what I was doing when I got off the plane. I had a great pharmacist who understood I was bewildered by Medical care and took care of me (I learned from her) and the health clerks at the medical clinics just stuck Medicare in as primary (I had no idea). I figured out how to push my appointments up, but it only dawned on me I might have cancer just before the ENT said we need a biopsy. I had been away for 10 years and PI medical was cheap. I got a cat scan for $100 and an MRI for $225. But I payed for nothing here unless I went to an urgent care clinic.

I got shoved into Medigap, if it is Medigap, because while it said I had to make a choice, the choice was to opt out or not. I did nothing. :)

And still, like most people, I'm not confident I understand it enough. :)

So I had this array of Medigap, Medicare advantage, my own health care plan, and ACA to muddle through. No one selling Blue Cross Blue Shield understands my BCBS plan here. If I call Florida Blue, I understand my plan better than the person I'm talking to. My wife doesn't deal with health plans until after she's one one. :) And not even then.

I recognize societies right to take a life, but advocate that we don't because we are bad at it, especially at the state level. I'd rather separate the person from society and keep them alive so if we did screw up, we can fess up and let then have what life remains to them back. To me, giving that innocent person the chance at a remainder of life is worth not executing anyone.

This morning I heard an enlightened Christian (if such a thing can really be) on the C-SPAN call-in program Washington Journal arguing against the death penalty, even for the manifestly guilty (*). The reason was that it risks society executing a guilty person before they have "come to Jesus" and are thereby redeemed in God's eyes. Executing them before that time condemns then to eternal damnation in Hell. So, it is better to keep then on death row indefinitely than to seal their fate prematurely. [ I won't go into why a supposedly all-loving God wouldn't also allow an arbitrarily long period of time in "limbo" during which a soul could "come to Jesus" and repent, and so avoid eternal damnation. ]

(*) What even *does* "manifestly guilty" mean? Someone could very deliberately shoot someone in front of ten witnesses and five cameras for reasons that might later be revealed to be erroneous - aka, "extenuating circumstances". Does that person deserve the death penalty?

Not my vision, I just recommend making the process more protective and yet swifter.

I'm on the fence. On the one hand, there's truth in the saying that
Some people just need killin'.

On the other hand, there's a steady stream of folks who, after years of incarceration, are completely exonerated.... and get to walk out quite alive.

Search keywords: murder + exonerated + prison

-Las Vegas AP—Sat December 14, 2024 - "US jury finds Vegas police fabricated evidence in 2001 killing, awards $34 million to exonerated woman.

A federal jury in Nevada has awarded more than $34 million to a woman who was arrested at age 18, wrongly convicted twice, and served nearly 16 years in a Nevada state prison for a 2001 killing she did not commit.

Justices said evidence showed that Lobato was in her hometown of Panaca, Nevada, some 150 miles from Las Vegas when Bailey was killed.
Kirstin Lobato, who is now 41 cried and hugged her attorneys after a judge read the trial verdict Thursday in US District Court.
"

16 years...Ooof!

Dec 17, 2024 - A Brooklyn native who spent nearly 30 years behind bars for a murder he did not commit was exonerated in 2020, and he's still adjusting to life outside of prison.

It's on all of us when we wrongly kill people.

But on the other hand... it's nuts that a guy like Randy Kraft wasn't mulched promptly following his conviction.

As of 2024, Kraft remains on death row at San Quentin State Prison. He continues to deny responsibility for any of the homicides he was either convicted of or suspected of committing.

manifest
1. Apparent; clear; obvious; unquestionable; evident.
For example, something that is manifestly erroneous is clearly wrong. (Anything Dope says qualifies.) :)

According to the Supreme Court of Louisiana in Canter v. Koehring Co. (1973), the “manifest error rule” requires appellate courts to give great deference to lower trial courts’ factual inferences when reviewing cases, so long as the trial court’s account of the facts is reasonable and exhibits no manifest error.
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Interesting. I'm not worried about the truly guilty repenting or being redeemed. But if that's what it takes to stop it, so be it.

But on the other hand... it's nuts that a guy like Randy Kraft wasn't mulched promptly following his conviction.

As of 2024, Kraft remains on death row at San Quentin State Prison. He continues to deny responsibility for any of the homicides he was either convicted of or suspected of committing.

I agree. The scorecard is damning evidence. But his being imprisoned is a small price to pay for the ability to let some innocent person go free.

So I had this array of Medigap, Medicare advantage, my own health care plan, and ACA to muddle through. No one selling Blue Cross Blue Shield understands my BCBS plan here. If I call Florida Blue, I understand my plan better than the person I'm talking to. My wife doesn't deal with health plans until after she's one one. :) And not even then. - Lapsody>/i>

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Wow, that is a lot of benefit programs grinding against one another, seems like it would make it easy for the insurers to get things confused over who pays what and how much has been paid. Delays and paperwork for you.

At my employer, we had a BSBS Group Medical Plan with the usual deductibles, copays and out of pocket maxes. My various healthcare providers had the BCBS Group on file as Primary, with Medicare Part A as secondary (I signed up for A since it is free). Years passed, and when I did go on Medicare Part B, I dropped the group BCBS plan at work and enrolled in a new medicare supplement (aka Medigap) also from BCBS. As I lived life, whenever I went to one of my health care providers, I advised them of my new insurance arrangement and provided the new policy numbers. I learned that only about half the time they would update their records, and bill the old employer plan and get rejected requiring me in explain it to them, sometimes a few times, meanwhile I am getting dunned by the providers computer.

Another thing that happened is one of my medical providers ordered some blood test that Medicare and Medigap paid for 100%. But the Dr sent the sample off to some specialist to get a DNA reading o some sort and my Dr provided that guy with my old insurance numbers, so I end up getting more dun letters from a medical practice I never heard of or ever went to. That bill started at $8,000 and after a couple years Medicare and BCBS paid most of it. After a couple of revised claims and adjustments, I ended up being stuck with $340 because somehow reasons... Insurance is not for the faint of heart.

I agree. The scorecard is damning evidence. But his being imprisoned is a small price to pay for the ability to let some innocent person go free.
The scorecard???

They caught Kraft while he was driving up the I-5 in Mission Viejo with the drugged, strangled Camp Pendleton Marine in his passenger seat.

There are slam dunks.

Speaking of slam dunks... Fentanyl being so readily available and lethal, why isn't it used for sanctioned executions?

The scorecard???

They caught Kraft while he was driving up the I-5 in Mission Viejo with the drugged, strangled Camp Pendleton Marine in his passenger seat.

There are slam dunks.

Yeah, but that's only one murder. He was convicted of 16, and the scorecard takes it to 64.


Speaking of slam dunks... Fentanyl being so readily available and lethal, why isn't it used for sanctioned executions?

I was asked the same thing by my neighbor two days ago. It makes sense that they should use it. I have no answer other than that I agree they should look at that.

Speaking of slam dunks... Fentanyl being so readily available and lethal, why isn't it used for sanctioned executions?they also

I was asked the same thing by my neighbor two days ago. It makes sense that they should use it. I have no answer other than that I agree they should look at that.

Lots of things are cheap and lethal, but they also have to be humane. I can't find any info on what a lethal does of fentanyl feels like when it's happening. Obviously, if some is writhing in apparent pain, that's not good.

But surely, the process by which one is put under deep sedation for surgery could be used if combined with a final dose of something lethal.

And isn't dying from carbon monoxide poisoning "painless"? (As in a "he died peacefully in his sleep" type of death.)

Lots of things are cheap and lethal, but they also have to be humane. I can't find any info on what a lethal does of fentanyl feels like when it's happening. Obviously, if some is writhing in apparent pain, that's not good.

Similar to morphine. You are sedated, fall asleep, and at some point stop breathing. Morphine drip was used on a friend of mine. He had multiple myeloma that reoccurred and he called the Hemlock Society. They talked with the Doctors who sent them away, and they gave my friend a morphine drip assist. Painless, you fall asleep.

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