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Outrage as legal US resident fined for not having papers proving residency

Two immigrants were sitting in Rogers Park, Chicago, when Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents arrived and demanded their papers. What unfolded was detailed by the Chicago Tribune: Rueben Antonio Cruz, a 60-year-old legal U.S. resident, was ordered to stand up, shoved into an ICE vehicle, and interrogated as agents drove around the neighborhood.

Federal law requires legal residents and green card holders to carry their documentation at all times. While some states have "show me your papers" laws that allow local police to demand proof of residency, Illinois does not.

Ultimately, agents verified his legal status in their database but still issued him a $130 fine for not having his documentation at the time.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/outrage-as-legal...

If Mr Cruz was a US citizen, he would not be required to have papers, yet. Meanwhile, US citizens, with brown skin, who don't have their papers on them, risk the "Born In East LA" scenario.

Born In East L.A. (1987) - Clip: Immigration Office (HD)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjQnAIuFyds

Steve...did I get it on the right board this time?

Outrage as legal US resident fined for not having papers proving residency

I've said before...how many of us could prove our residency or citizenship status on a random stop? I couldn't. I could produce my driver's license. But I don't carry my passport with me.

ICE could sweep any of us up, no due process, and we wake up tomorrow in Nicaragua.

I've said before...how many of us could prove our residency or citizenship status on a random stop?

I do have a wallet sized certificate of birth registration from the city of Dearborn, that I have had since the 60s. My certified birth certificate is considerably larger than "wallet sized".

But I don't carry my passport with me.

Not everyone has a passport. I don't. I have read that people have been making inquiries about obtaining a replacement passport, because they carry theirs all the time now, and are concerned they might lose it.

Steve

Yes Steve you have been on this one.

And yes its concerning.

While is is the law to carry one's green card---man that is risky. Heck i'm good at losing driver's licenses but loosing a green card would be a true pain in the ass.

More concerning than enforcing paperwork laws-----this is indeed precursor to 'papers please'.

Two things are too bad.

1.)It's too bad that this is happening.

2.)It's too bad that things got to point where it gave impetus to this happening ----we should habe been more realistic on imigration.

Whether we agree or not, always nicve to see your original thoughts.

Too many Sheeples here who just copy and paste and tow the line.

ICE could sweep any of us up, no due process, and we wake up tomorrow in Nicaragua.

Hyperbolic? Maybe. Maybe not. Seems to be where Stephen Miller is taking our country. He and Trump have declared Democrats "evil". WTF.

Hyperbolic? Maybe. Maybe not. Seems to be where Stephen Miller is taking our country. He and Trump have declared Democrats "evil". WTF.
***

What have you declared MAGA folks ---a vast majority of whom who didn't storm the capitol, but just happen to have a different opinion on trade or immigration or foreign aid?

Deal with it now.

If only someone would tell trump that haughty racist white Liberals being tossed into cells would help his election chances more so than rounding up illegals :)

Someone should suggest that one .....

And, to draft at universities and by highest 401K balance when WW3 comes.

1PG I've said before...how many of us could prove our residency or citizenship status on a random stop?

That's what these new state IDs with stars on them are for. ICE is supposed to accept that as proof of citizenship. My wife has a green card, but she switches purses a lot and rides a bike to play pickle ball in the AM. In at least one case they've detained someone after they showed them the new state ID. I have no problem with the new state ID, as long as it's free for the poor and access to get it isn't horrible. A state like Texas that is overtly bigoted, will charge fees and make the paperwork a night mare, effectively hindering out of state voting.

That's what these new state IDs with stars on them are for. ICE is supposed to accept that as proof of citizenship.

No, it does not prove you are a citizen. The "real ID" star only means you have shown papers verifying you are who you say you are. You can present a green card, or a foreign passport, for instance, to obtain a "real ID" driver's license.

To obtain mine, I headed to the Secretary of State office, with the birth certificate I have had all my life. The clerk looked at it and said "that isn't a birth certificate. that's a souvenir from the hospital". I protested "it was good enough for the Navy". But the US wasn't nearly as nutty decades ago, as it is now. I had to obtain an official, certified, birth certificate. In Michigan, birth certificates are issued at the county level. Fortunately, my life's wanderings landed me back in the county of my birth, after a 40 year absence, so it was a short drive to the nearest Wayne County Clerk's office. And that birth certificate was not free. In Wayne County, it would have been free, if I was over 65, but I wasn't that old then. So, my cost to obtain that free "real ID" license was the cost of the birth certificate: $24.

Steve

I've said before...how many of us could prove our residency or citizenship status on a random stop?

Everyone COULD, if they chose to do so. I have had one since they became available. I renew it when I renew my US passport.

US Passport Card is FEDERALLY ISSURED REAL ID and is same size as a credit card or driver's license.

Sure, it has a price. But way cheaper than the alternatives.

A U.S. passport card is a wallet-sized, plastic alternative to a passport book that can be used for land and sea entry into the U.S. from Mexico, Canada, Bermuda, and the Caribbean. It is cheaper than a passport book, serves as a valid proof of identity and citizenship, and is also a REAL ID-compliant identification for domestic flights. However, the passport card is not valid for international air travel.

I've said before...how many of us could prove our residency or citizenship status on a random stop?

If you're a citizen, you don't have to prove your status at a random stop.

If you're a legal resident and not a citizen, you're required to carry documentation of your residency status with you at all times. The easiest way to do that is to carry the literal "green card" that you get with lawful permanent resident status.

If you're a citizen, you don't have to prove your status at a random stop.

Under the current administration, you sorta do. They could stop you and Mrs Albaby (you say she's Cuban), and if you can't show you're citizens, what is to stop them from shipping you off to Nicaragua? Without due process (which appears to be regarded as nothing more than a quaint notion these days), and "papers" on your person, there is nothing stopping the Miller Goon Squads.

I don't recall now if 1poorlady carried her green card routinely. I think she had it in her wallet with the driver's license. When asked for ID, I'm pretty sure she pulled out the license. Only the office ever wanted to see her green card, or more specifically, to be sure she renewed it on time before she became a citizen.

They could stop you and Mrs Albaby (you say she's Cuban), and if you can't show you're citizens, what is to stop them from shipping you off to Nicaragua? Without due process (which appears to be regarded as nothing more than a quaint notion these days), and "papers" on your person, there is nothing stopping the Miller Goon Squads.

Are you talking about legally, or illegally?

Legally, there's no obligation for us to demonstrate that we're citizens. They can't just ship us off somewhere for failing to have proof that we are citizens. That's different from non-citizens, even lawful permanent resident non-citizens, who are legally required to have documentation of their legal status. If we are citizens and are unlawfully deported, we would have the right to submit a claim to a U.S. court (because we are citizens of the U.S., even if we are not present in the U.S.), the court would have jurisdiction to review the claim, and the U.S. would have to let us back in.

Illegally, it doesn't matter whether I'm carrying my passport or not. The federal government always has the power to ship you off to Nicaragua, and having a copy of your passport on you doesn't change that. They lack the authority to do it if you're a citizen, and the restraint on them acting unlawfully is always the prospect of after-the-fact remedies rather than any prospective limit on their physical ability to do it.

The shocked outrage in the OP article is due in part to the article author - or at least the ACLU rep quoted in it - not being aware that LPR's and other legal non-citizens are, in fact, legally required to have proof of their immigration status on them at all times. And yes, you can get a civil violation and a fine if you don't comply with that requirement. That is different than the rules for citizens, but it's been that way for decades.

The shocked outrage in the OP article is due in part to the article author - or at least the ACLU rep quoted in it - not being aware that LPR's and other legal non-citizens are, in fact, legally required to have proof of their immigration status on them at all times. And yes, you can get a civil violation and a fine if you don't comply with that requirement. That is different than the rules for citizens, but it's been that way for decades.

I used to carry my "green card" in my wallet next to my driver's license. It was very unsettling when I received citizenship and had to hand it in.
I felt kinda naked. No protection. Got used to it.

If you're a citizen, you don't have to prove your status at a random stop.

That's the loophole, for now. Anyone could claim to be a citizen, as there is, currently, no requirement to carry papers showing your citizenship. A week or two back, I posted a link to an article about the introduction of mandatory papers for citizens of the UK. "illegal immigrants" is supposed to be a major problem for the UK too.

I had not thought about that "US passport card", mentioned above. If we had a functioning government, I might trot down to the Post Office and apply for one...because paying a fee, is better than being in CECOT, or "Alligator Alcatraz" with no remaining relatives to get a lawyer on the case.

Steve

"US passport card", mentioned above. If we had a functioning government, I might trot down to the Post Office and apply for one

Check online with the US Passport Office (State Dept).

To get a passport card, you must apply in person using Form DS-11, unless you are eligible to renew by mail using Form DS-82. For in-person applications, you will need to submit Form DS-11 (completed but not signed), proof of U.S. citizenship, a photo ID, photocopies of these documents, a passport photo, and pay the application and execution fees. You will then submit your application at an acceptance facility, such as a post office or clerk of court.

Fees:

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passpor...

If you're a citizen, you don't have to prove your status at a random stop.

And if an ICE officer doesn’t believe you when you say you’re a citizen at a random stop, then what??

Does the ICE officer still have probable cause to detain or arrest you?

And if the officer does have probable cause and you are detained or arrested, how do you get access to your passport to prove you are a citizen when that passport is at home and you are in an ICE detention facility?

—Peter

And if an ICE officer doesn’t believe you when you say you’re a citizen at a random stop, then what??

Does the ICE officer still have probable cause to detain or arrest you?

No. They didn't before, and they certainly don't after I've informed them I'm a citizen.

And if the officer does have probable cause and you are detained or arrested, how do you get access to your passport to prove you are a citizen when that passport is at home and you are in an ICE detention facility?

You have your lawyer do it and present that information to a judge to get you released.

All of these questions are sort of missing the point. Our entire system is predicated on after the fact relief. There is nothing that stops ICE (or the police for that matter) from having the power to sweep you up and take you to detention or jail for no reason. Even if you had your passport on you, the ICE agent could declare it a fake or stolen or "not you," and bring you into detention. You do not have the power - no matter what you do or no matter what documents you carry - to stop law enforcement from taking the first initial step to take you into custody.

Your protections are (and always have been) in what lies after that. That the government has to give you access to a judge at some point, who will make a determination whether they can hold you or not.

And if an ICE officer doesn’t believe you when you say you’re a citizen at a random stop, then what??

That is the "Born In East LA" scenario presented by Cheech Marin. The guy was Hispanic. Native born, US citizen. Spoke perfect USian common English. But had no ID on him. *poof* tossed across the border to Mexico.

I posted the clip of the interview at the INS office before.

Here is the original music video that inspired the movie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFUFw1GH6ic

Steve

If you're a citizen, you don't have to prove your status at a random stop.

If you're a citizen and ICE stops you, usually the ID you have is a driver's license. If you look white, speak English well, and are wearing a MAGA hat - you're in. :) If you look like Bad Bunny, and your ICE guy thinks Puerto Rico is a foreign country, you're screwed.

If you're a legal resident and not a citizen, you're required to carry documentation of your residency status with you at all times. The easiest way to do that is to carry the literal "green card" that you get with lawful permanent resident status.

Si tu hable solamente espanol y no tiene su licensia o nunca. Tonto!- donde es su carta verde? Sobre la mesa en su aprtamiento? Vaya con Dios, amigo, el prison para ti. CECOT para ti!

Are you talking about legally, or illegally?

Depends which era you are talking about. Pre-Felon, definitely illegally. During this administration, they have done away with due process. If you have your "papers", they might just let you go on your way. Without them, and no due process, you have no recourse at all.

Also...as an aside...a citizen doesn't have to demonstrate they are a citizen, but how would a Goon know if you're a citizen unless you can prove it? You can't tell just by looking (or listening) to someone. America is all different colors, and all different accents. 1poorlady is a citizen, but she's not white, and her accent isn't mid-west American. So that law seems kind of meaningless. Once you prove you're a citizen, then you don't have to prove it?? That's nonsensical.

You are correct that the Goons can just ship you off, passport or not. Worse, they could confiscate the passport, and then you would have great difficulty getting back to your country of citizenship (USA). Because you have no passport. And how would after-the-fact remedies help you in that situation?

This sort of thing is my primary complaint about the Felon. Forget his policies (that I disagree with vehemently). He and his lackeys have no regard for the rule of law. A government that has no regard for rule of law can do anything, and you're powerless to prevent it. They violate it at will, and dare you to challenge them in court (which takes months, or longer). And then sometimes they ignore the court anyway. You compared the Felon to FDR, but there really is no comparison. FDR didn't violate the law (except for EO 9066, which was upheld -wrongly- at the time). He packed the SCOTUS, but that wasn't illegal. Arguably bullying/ram-rodding his policies into effect, but not illegal. This administration doesn't care about law, it doesn't care about legal authority, it doesn't care about the Constitution. THAT'S what most concerns me. We can survive four years of bad policy. We can't survive the systematic dismantling of a Constitutional Republic.

You have your lawyer do it and present that information to a judge to get you released.

Tangential question, but should be right up your alley.

Most of us don't have a lawyer on retainer. How do you get a lawyer? Especially if you're already in a detention facility? Not being facetious or sarcastic. I really want to know, what are the mechanics of it.

And, also, how to find the correct lawyer. You all specialize. You're real estate, as I recall. There are also immigration lawyers. The only law firm names I know are personal injury because I hear their ads all the time. Probably not of much use if I get detained by Miller's Goon Squad.

How do you get a lawyer? Especially if you're already in a detention facility?

It's not my field, but I imagine word of mouth is the most likely way. You're in a facility with hundreds/thousands of other people detained on immigration charges. Many (most) of them will have lawyers already, and they'll take on new clients. Especially the lawyers who are working pro bono with immigration advocacy groups, who I'm sure make it known throughout the facility that they're there to help people who don't already have counsel. If not, family members or friends of folks who have been detained can reach out to lawyers, or to immigration advocacy groups who can find them a lawyer, on behalf of the detained person.

If the person being detained is actually a U.S. citizen? A phone call to any news organization would result in a hundred lawyers trying to get hired by that individual after the story ran. You'd have to beat them off with a stick.

If we are citizens and are unlawfully deported, we would have the right to submit a claim to a U.S. court (because we are citizens of the U.S., even if we are not present in the U.S.), the court would have jurisdiction to review the claim, and the U.S. would have to let us back in.

Good luck doing that from an Uganda work colony (jail).

I've not read word one about the fate of people forcibly deplaned in Djibouti or Uganda. Did they even make it there or did they go high-diving somewhere west of the Canaries?

if you can't show you're citizens, what is to stop them from shipping you off to Nicaragua? - 1pg

-----------------

If they are as lawless as you claim, what is to stop them shipping you off anyway?

If they are as lawless as you claim, what is to stop them shipping you off anyway?

You have to stop abuses at this level. We want leaders who won't push to this level. Why not make a deal and leave farm workers alone? So if they work up and down the food industry - Ice just doesn't go after them. Let's not strain our farmers - that's a high suicide area. But then every business will want a break. Y'all like transaction politik, and face it, T makes compromises where he wants to as part of the deal.

If they are as lawless as you claim, what is to stop them shipping you off anyway?

Don’t think we rule that out as a possibility.

You have to stop abuses at this level.


***ripped from the headlines***

U.S. citizen, Army veteran arrested by ICE claps back at DHS ‘debunk’

Retes was detained by immigration agenda during a federal enforcement operation at a Camarillo cannabis farm in California on July 10, according to DHS. Retes, who says he was on his way to work, described being detained for three days without charges, access to an attorney or contact with his family. He described the encounter and its aftermath in an opinion piece for the San Francisco Chronicle and a newsletter. In a post on his newsletter and an op-ed in the San Francisco Chronicle, he said ICE officers used tear gas, broke his car window, and applied physical force, including kneeling on him, while he complied with their instructions.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/us-citizen-army-...

WGN-TV producer violently detained during Chicago ICE enforcement action

A producer and editor for WGN-TV was aggressively detained and driven away by Border Patrol agents on Friday morning during an Immigration and Customs Enforcement action in Chicago’s Lincoln Park neighborhood.

Debbie Brockman, who has worked for the local television station since 2011, was violently forced to the ground by two federal agents before having her hands cuffed behind her back.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/...

A longer version of the video. Notice that, when the ICE vehicle drove away, it hit another vehicle, and kept going.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4ME4pkbRVI&t=43s

All hail the regime and it's SA.

Steve...HBTT

If they are as lawless as you claim, what is to stop them shipping you off anyway?

They are as lawless as I claim. It's all over the news every week. And I'm not even paying much attention, so it's probably worse than I know. (I can't do anything about it until I get a vote next year, so gnashing of teeth from watching/reading news won't do me any good.)

As for me, I'm not on their radar yet. Probably won't ever be. But, as we've seen, random folks are being swept up and carted away. Sometimes against a judge's express orders. So it could happen. Could happen to you, too. You never know with this administration. And that should NEVER be the case in America.

IMHO, this is right up there with Japanese internment in terms of reckless violation of civil rights.

You may be willing to give up your right to habeas corpus, but I am not. I'm not even willing to let you give yours up because it sets a bad example.

Your protections are (and always have been) in what lies after that. That the government has to give you access to a judge at some point, who will make a determination whether they can hold you or not.

And that is my point. If the government starts denying you access to the courts, the courts lose all of their power. And you lose all of your rights as a citizen or even as a human in a country that has - until very recently - granted even non-citizens some basic human rights and access to our courts.

The current administration has already demonstrated its willingness to deny anyone and everyone access to the appropriate courts. They are collecting people with administrative warrants rather than judicial warrants and have summarily deported people without a court hearing. They are now acting as judge, jury, and executioner on the high seas, killing people who are posing no immediate threat to the military personnel who are using lethal force to stop suspected drug runners far from our coastline.

Citizen or not, we are all on the brink of losing our right to redress government wrongs in court.

—Peter

You have to stop abuses at this level.

Remember how the right howled about 'jack booted thugs' coming to get them? Something that occurred only in their fervid imaginations?

Every accusation is a confession.

The current administration has already demonstrated its willingness to deny anyone and everyone access to the appropriate courts.

Have they yet, though? "Anyone and everyone"? I'm not aware of any circumstances where the Administration has argued that a U.S. citizen should not have access to a court. They have certainly taken a very extreme position on how few due process protections they believe non-citizens are entitled to. But for good or bad, they're not acting without a colorable legal claim.

Take, for example, administrative warrants. That sure seems bad, right? However, they're acting under clear statutory authority when they do that. Congress specifically gave ICE the power to detain immigrants with administrative warrants. It's right there in 8 USC 1226:

https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=(title:8%20section:1226%20edition:prelim)%20OR%20(granuleid:USC-prelim-title8-section1226)&f=treesort&edition=prelim&num=0&jumpTo=true#substructure-location_a:~:text=(a)%20Arrest%2C%20detention,provided%20such%20authorization.

Is that good? Arguably not. Is it constitutional? Probably, though there's plenty of arguments about it. But it's not at all ridiculous that the Administration is saying that it can do this. Congress specifically said they could!

So too with the summary deportations without a hearing, because the law provides that many immigrants are subject to summary deportations without a hearing. Is that good? Plenty of reasons why it's not. But Congress wrote into the 1996 amendments to the Immigration and Naturalization Act that the agencies had the power to do this. They're following the law! Is the law Constitutional? Again, plenty of arguments about that - though parts of it were already upheld by SCOTUS in a 7-2 decision (Breyer and Ginsburg both signed on):

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/19pdf/19-161...

What I think is happening is that lots of people are appalled that the federal statutes and Constitution don't afford the same rights to immigrants, and especially not to immigrants who are here unlawfully, as they do to citizens. And maybe they're right to be appalled. But just because the Administration has chosen to actually implement the appalling powers that have been granted to them does not mean that they are acting unlawfully in so doing, such that we can (or should) simply assume that they'll start taking the same actions against citizens when such actions are clearly and inarguably illegal.

"The current administration has already demonstrated its willingness to deny anyone and everyone access to the appropriate courts. They are collecting people with administrative warrants rather than judicial warrants and have summarily deported people without a court hearing. They are now acting as judge, jury, and executioner on the high seas, killing people who are posing no immediate threat to the military personnel who are using lethal force to stop suspected drug runners far from our coastline." - ptheland

One of the most despicable things the federal government has been doing has been quickly transferring detainees (even U.S. citizens) to other jurisdictions so that any enquiries or filings on their behalf are not in the jurisdiction where they are held so have to be dismissed. ICE arrests a U.S citizen in Portland on Trumped up charges, they quickly transfer them to a prison in Montana, then when a friend tries to get them legal help in Portland, they are already out of the jurisdiction so a judge cannot do anything. It allows them to inconvenience legitimate, non-violent protestors for a longer period of time.

I cannot imagine anyone being ok with crap like this, but I am sure some of the usual despicable suspects will be by to explain why it is ok to violate their due process, at least in the short term.

What I think is happening is that lots of people are appalled that the federal statutes and Constitution don't afford the same rights to immigrants, and especially not to immigrants who are here unlawfully, as they do to citizens.

As I recall, when you were giving Dope yet another lesson in Constitutional Law, you indicated that the Constitution applies to the government everywhere. So they can't do certain things (or must respect certain things) no matter where in the world a person is. So they couldn't order a hit on me just because I am out of the country, for example. They are constrained no matter where I am. And, with those in this country, they are similarly constrained. I don't believe the 5th or 14th carve out exceptions for non-citizens (except in time of war, where people are deprived of their lives routinely).

What I think is happening is that lots of people are appalled that the federal statutes and Constitution don't afford the same rights to immigrants, and especially not to immigrants who are here unlawfully, as they do to citizens.

Not me. They're due a hearing, but the requirements for due process don't have to be as stringent as for a citizen. A certain amount of mistakes will be made, but let's not ship citizens to CECOT. The standards can be lower, but still reasonable. You can have an administrator who sorts out cases that should go before a judge, makes to decisions to deport where the chance of success is low, and allows a little more time where needed.

If someone is here on a valid VISA, why have a hearing unless they've committed a crime? If they've overstayed their VISA by a few days by a reasonable misunderstanding, just let them go home.

Let's not send people home who've been here for 30 years and have family, etc. Let the teenager graduate from HS and make a case if they have family here. The Spanish Culture is one of the greatest cultures in the world and we aren't destroying America by letting it flourish. The first cowboys were vaqueros.

The first cowboys were vaqueros.

As they say here on the CA Central Coast.... "we didn't cross the border... the border crossed us."

A song I started playing a few years ago mentions Captain Dana (related to Richard Henry Dana, author of Two Years Before The Mast) who married a Mexican so he could get a land grant on the central coast from the Mexican governor. He wanted Ojai. He got Nipomo.

Dave Stamey - The Vaquero Song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRbz94ELJg8

As they say here on the CA Central Coast.... "we didn't cross the border... the border crossed us."

I lived in California for 30 years and 20 in Newport Beach. :) Before vaqueros, down New Mexico way, the Indians tended sheep, and they may have tended cattle later. Good song.

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